Navigating Punishment and Consequences in Faith

You're listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun in practical ways. Hey, everybody, it is me. Go ahead, Hey everybody, thank you for tuning in, and welcome to the Bible Guys. We are so glad that you're here. I'm Jeff and this is I am Chris Barbo Chris Sarbo, and we are super excited about today because we have one of our favorite games, and this is the Guess the Word game. Yeah, right, so this would be like, what's what's the board game like you'd play at home? Taboo Taboo, kind of like taboo. So there's a word I'm trying to get Chris to say, and then there's a bunch of words I'm not allowed to say. And here on this one, she's getting Desiree is getting really aggressive because she said I can't use the italicized words or I lose a thousand points. It doesn't say how many points you get for guessing. She's only just punishing me. There's only punishment for me. There's no reward for you, just punishment for It's all zero row. Unless you screw up, then that's what happened. Hey, by the way, if you're happened to be watching this instead of listening, Uh, we're going to put the words on the bottom of the screen that Jeff is not allowed to say, just for fun, right, And now the very first one, you accidentally opened up my file instead of yours, which I never do, well, I should say, hardly ever do. He was trying to sneak. He was trying to he heard that there was a thousand points on the line for these for me, and you're trying to just know what I actually did. In between the segments, I said, Jeff, I said, you're going to guess the word, and he goes, no, you're guessing the word. I said, no, you're guessing the word. And then I realized I'd open up the wrong file, wrong file. So the first one was supposed to be speed, speed, and I wasn't allowed to say fast, slow, velocity limit or quick. What would you have said, uh, movie with Sandra Bullock. Yes, that's what I was going to say to you. That's what I was looking at. The word. I would said bus bus movie with Sandra Bullock, Yes, yes, and I would say j Yeah. I would have said speed for sure, you know me because that's and by the way, that is the word that I looked at. I didn't look at any of the any of the of the other words. Right, so here we go. Uh, here's the second one that I'm not allowed to say. There's five words I'm not allowed to say, yes, squead, I'm waiting largest, yes, flightless creature, ostrich, Ostrich, that's correct. I'm not allowed to say sand bird, feather, egg or emu. Oh wow, so yeah, those were hard well largest flightless creature was a great description. There you go, because that's obviously the osc Yes. Have you ever seen an Ostrich in the wild? Yes? No, no, no, not in the wild. No. Have I seen them in like in a safari? I don't think so. I've seen him in Koru, I've seen him in the zoo. Okay. Anyways, all right, here's a tough one. Uh one eye, one leg, one I uh pirate. There you go. Okay, I could have said jack sparrow. That's what I should have said, right, Oh man, this is a tough one. I was about to say ship patch, treasure sword or parrot. Oh yeah, so that that was tough. Okay. You could have said are okay? So this is a really hard one. Yeah, looking forward to it. They always play this song as a it's from the late seventies, kind of a disco song as a time. So what's the first one? Oh, celebrate, Celebrate, that's right, man live that was hard rejoice birthday party occasion. How about the fact that I guessed that you got from there? There you go, that's right. I was. I was literally thinking there was like a two percent chance it was going to be that song. It was like he said, they always play that song, and I thought, what song from the seventies do people adopt and play? Celebrate or ymca? Those are right? Right? Yeah? Wow, yeah, that is crazy, very good that you said it that way. And then the last one is, uh, the only person allowed to speak the truth to the king? What? Uh? He's funny prophet he juggles. Oh, the jester. There you go. That's okay. So a jester was the only person in the king's court that was allowed to speak truth. So I did not know. Yeah, the gester. That's the whole purpose of the jester, the gestures to make people laugh. The gester used comedy to speak the truth to the king, to let the emperor know he has no clothes. Yeah, yeah, so so he had complete immunity as opposed to everybody else in the court. You go tell the king he's got something between his teeth. This chance you're gonna get killed. So only the jester could speak the truth to the king. I had no idea, no, zero idea. Yeah. I thought the court jester was to entertain the king partly. I am blown away right now. You didn't know that, no, okay, yeah, so anyways, I wasn't allowed to say court joker, fool clown or jokes. Yeah. Yeah, so that was a tough one. Well good job. Wow, look at that. You learned something today. Yeah, no doubt, Okay, I don't. I don't recognize that as an effective method. Well, they don't have them anymore, so there's that. Well, like I like, go tell the king bad news and make it funny. It wasn't always funny, Well you said, through comedy sometimes, Yeah, it's one of the things that they did. So maybe perhaps he would just say, hey, by the way, you have something between your teeth. Mhm. Wow. I would think that'd be an opportunity for something funny. Wow. I absolutely did not know any of that, so they not always was it funny, although satire was a big part of it. Sometimes it was a roast oftentimes of the other politicians. There's a lot of intellectual engagement. They tended to be intellectually engaging. So there would be big thoughts, big ideas, and then you know, you and I we horse around a little bit. But there's always a bite to the conversation, right, there's always substance to it. That was a part of that form. And then they could speak the truth to the king when nobody else could. Yeah, so well there you go. You know. So we're kind of like Gesters in all the movies and all the movies that I've seen with gestures. That was never a part of it. Well, movies are totally true, it's exactly. Movies are historically accurate on everything. Stop. Would you not agree? Though? The only place that's more accurate than movies would be you know, the internet. Oh my gosh, Listen, there are movies that go out of their way to be painstakingly historically accurate. Sure, and down to like the Armor, like Saving Private Ryan, do you ever see a backstory on that? Yes? Down to I mean just just down to They wanted to create that movie to where anybody who experienced World War two and you know, the Omaha Beach storm invasion would have said, that is precisely how it was. So I saw on that movie specifically, I saw a veteran say the only thing is I can't smell it. That's what he said. Wow, wow, Oh that gave me shivers. But the point is is that So there are movies where I've seen it, where they have the fool, they have the Jester, and he was more like a fool. He was more like But never have I seen anybody in that role of a gester speaking truth. You know what, the only the only one a siri who's the only person can speak the truth to the king. I found this on the web. It is often said that the Jester is the only one who speak truth to the king. So Le'm were going, you know, the only movie I can think of is History of the World Part one with mel Brooks. No, there's some accuracy. Yeah, it was a comedy, but Dom Delauise with Caesar, and he came in to entertain and he actually he spoke a lot of truth and he got him in trouble with the king because he told a joke that was that was liking didn't but but but but but the whole the whole feeling in the room got you know, the happy feeling got sucked away. And then they said seize him and he had to run from the king for Caesar. So, hey, I'm glad we sorted that out. That was that must have been a ruvening three or four minutes, right there is sorting that out. Yeah. And then and then the proof you used to the accuracy of movies is History the World Part one Brooks. Anyways, let's see if we can salvage this today. So Dudteronomy chapter seven, thank you desire by the way for this. Yes, that was a fun one. Deuteronomy is where we've been. And remember Deuteronomy is kind of a summary of all the things that God had taught the people of Israel. I'm Mount Sinai and afterwards. Now Moses is coming to the end of his ministry and end of his leadership, so he's reminding them of all that God had done before. A lot of the young people have died, a lot of the old people, I mean have died up to this point because remember they were going to wander for forty years and all the people who refuse to go into the land, the promised land before we're dying. And so Moses is coming back. He's one of the few longtimers left him and Joshua and Caleb, and so he's reminding them these are the things God promised. And so in Deuteronomy chapter seven, we're continuing because we read all of six. Yesterday says when the Lord your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you, the Hittites, Gurgoshites, Amorites, Canaanites, Parasites, high Bites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are greater and more numerous than you. When the Lord your God hands these nations over to you, you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them, and show them no mercy. You must not enter marry with them. Do not let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters, for they will lead your children away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger the Lord will burn against you. He will quickly destroy you. This is what you must do. He must break down their pagan altars and shatter their sacred pillars, cut down their a share of poles, and burn their idols. For you are a holy people who belong to the Lord your God. Of all the people on the earth, the Lord your God has chosen you to be his own special treasure. The Lord did not set his heart on you and chose you because you were more numerous than other nations, for you are the smallest of all nations. Rather, it was simply that the Lord loves you, and he was keeping the oath he had sworn to your ancestors. That is why the Lord rescued you with such a strong hand from your slavery and from the oppressive hand of Pharaoh, King of Egypt. Understand therefore, that the Lord your God is indeed God. He is the faithful God who keeps his covenant for a thousand generations and lavishes his unfailing love on those who love and obey his commands. But he does not hesitate to punish and destroy those who reject him. Therefore, you must obey all these commands, decrees, and regulations I'm giving you today. He goes on. He says, if you listen to these regulations and faithful obey them, Lord of God, to keep his covenant of unfailing love with you. Most of God's promises are if then promises, right, Yeah, and the Old Testament especially because a lot of times the in my opinion, I think that God had a lot of immediate consequences executed against disobedience that I think that Jesus christ sacrifice satisfies today. I think that the like, for instance, the idea that you know, somebody would disobey God and die on the spot. I don't think that although he did it in the New Testament, didn't he Yes, he did. He did a New Testament a couple times. Yeah, when when during the before the Bible was completed. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like to me that the wrath of God if and then's are still there. I've preached the whole thing on this. I have a whole message where I break these down. Actually, so I called it labor and delivery, right, and so I actually called it that, and I showed the film on my wife's first giving birth experience. But not what you're thinking, just like me, like filming her going to the hospital and things like that. But the idea that we would labor and then be delivered. Right. So it's just that, But it's the idea of if and then promises. But it seems like to me, in the Old Testament, the consequence of sin that was immediately executed as a form of punishment, I don't believe that God still punishes us in the exact same way. And the reason why, For instance, I let's give you hypothetical, see if you agree with this. I remember when I was first dating my wife Liz, and we were boyfriend girlfriend, and I had I was supposed to tithe, right, and I was supposed to give ninety dollars and it was like a big build up of these funds that I had or something like this, and I was supposed to tithe and I didn't, And I said, oh, I'm just going to have to kick the can down the field, and I have to you know, like save up and give it next time with the entire intention of still giving right. So but yet I'm just kicking the can down the field, not honoring God with my very first first fruits kind of thing. So what ends up happening is we're driving down the road and then a rock flies up, hits my windshield and cracks it in a very massive way. Well, then it ends up that I have to replace it. And the bill for that windshield back then was exactly ninety dollars. So my wife makes a comment, which is which brings up a theological conversation. And my wife says, and this is what she says. She goes, well, looks like you got punished for not tithing. And she goes, God, God is nells out of you one way or the other. And I said, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, you really believe that, and and and and and and she says, yes, now she no longer believes that. And I believe that, uh, God does not punish us for our sin in that manner through disobedience. I think that there are forms of punishment that may come. Number one, as a consequence for our sins. Meaning you know, you know, if you if you she done your wife, there's a consequence for your marriage, that kind of thing. Right. So there's you know, there's there's sexual diseases and the big sins versus the little sins. No, no, no, I mean there's practical things too, right. I mean there's there's, uh, in other words, there's earthly consequences. That's what I'm trying to say, there's there's earthly natural consequences, right if you're if you're angry all the time, you're gonna lose a bunch of friends, right, that that kind of thing. So I believe there's earth consequences. But it seems to me that God's warnings of punishing against sins direct disobedience. I don't think that God works that way. I think that Jesus Christ book the Hebrews says he does well, but but but how does that? But but how does that play out in our lives? If he doesn't rebuke you and reprove you, then King James says, you're a bastard and not a son. Yes, but so so God's active punishment, yes, for sin, This is this is a is affirmed in Hebrews. Yes, but this is a good debate because at the same time it talks about the consequence and the payment for all of our sins is taken care of. Yeah, that's eternity. There has nothing to do with day to day behavior. So he's still gonna That's why it says he's talking about he's talking about you're not a son if God doesn't rebuke you well, I mean, I know that Romans talks about how He gives us up to reprobate mind and how how he Christians. So I'm talking so I understand Hebrews is only written to Christians. Okay, So you so you're talking about and so God, God will spank you. You're talking about Christians who sins. It literally says God will spank you. And so it says, yeah, I think that God spanks us in different ways. Yes, since so where I think that Liz there was some truth to what Liz said about the ninety dollars. I don't think it was a punishment for not tithing for ninety dollars. So the other side of tithing and Malachi is he says, this is test me in this. See if I don't open the windows of having a portal blessing on you, that's where we stop. But he says, and I'll hold back the devourer for your sake. Right, So it didn't have to have been an active I'm going to take ninety bucks out of you as much as it is. I'm not going to protect you from that rock today. Right. That could be the other side of that that there is there are consequences, and you know, so you're walking around without God's favor, You're walking around without God's protection when you're choosing to walk into sobe I think a lot of times on your day to day. See, this is a this is a good debate because so I have I have been taught and belief and let me see if you agree with this statement. So so God's God's God's view on sin is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow. Right, yesterday, yesterday, today and forever. Yeah, God is the same. God is the same. That's right. So in other words, God feels the same way about every sin in the Old Testament as he does in the New Testament. Right, the only difference is in the Old Testament he would execute his wrath on people for their sin, and therefore their sin had to be treated differently. They had to you know, pay for their sins, to sacrifice this and all these different kinds of things. Because sin has been every sin has been paid for and is forgiven. It's not I'm not sure that I believe that it's only for just salvation, Jesus's death, brown resurrection, because what I've always been taught and believe still is that even though that God feels the same way about all of our sin, even after recept Christ. God's reaction to our sin is the thing that changes because because of Jesus Christ. Yeah, so again, I think you're you're you're conflating day to day living the blessing of God, the favor of God on your everyday life. You're conflating that with sealvific grace. There's two different It's two different. Uh, you just use two words. I did not understand. Conflating is mixing up self effic is salvation grace? Right? Okay, okay there so, so I surmise the conflating. So so mixing up those those two ideas is where it gets confusing. So God does bring justice and and so I would use justice rather than wrath. But he does tell us, both in the New Testament and Old Testament both to fear God for sure. Right, So what's that fear about? Right? So the fear is there are consequences to my everyday behaviors. I'm not going to hell for sinning, but buddy, it's gonna hurt. Life is gonna hurt if I choose to live like pagans. If I choose to live his way, Life's not gonna hurt as bad. Life still hurts because we're still sinners and we still live in a broken world, but not as bad. And so God says, I'll hold back the devour for your sake. I'm going to pour out my favor on you. And God's promises if then promises in the Old Testament is the same as in the New Testament. He continues to give us this, Hey, there are consequences to your behavior kind of idea. It's not heaven and Hell. Right, that's resolved, But man, life is gonna hurt a lot more when I choose not to live his way. And he tells us that in Hebrews, and Paul affirms it with regard to God's anger and wrath in the Book of Romans. But so, if I'm to believe and that God is the same, then then basically I'm to read this in the Old Testament where he says, if you do not do this, then what does he say? Uh uh? He says He's going to punish me for not obeying him. Yes, so so so, so I believe you think that's the whole idea of the book he Hebrews. When it says he literally it says he punishes you, spanks you. Yeah, as a Christian remember that, right. But but again that that there's semantics on what does it mean for him to punish you. Well, he's not talking about hell because no, no, I know that. But what I'm saying is is there's a big difference between God's gonna get you versus like he's gonna get you like you didn't do this. He therefore you're on a you're on a zapp list, right versus uh, yeah, perhaps you don't have as much favor or blessings in your life. Yeah, yeah, So I think those are two different things that you're you're looking at the idea that there are a couple of times in the Old Testament Cora, for instance, where the ground opens up and swallows him, right, and these things as opposed to God's long suffering, the fact that God is patient. Even in the Old Testament, God is patient. The Canaanites had existed for a thousand years. Yeah, right, and now he's saying I'm done with them, right, So you don't think he let them live for forty more years after he brought consequences on them for sinning it's not me, but I know, but it's also Old Testament stuff. So let me let me, let me see if what you do with this comment, okay, he says, then the anger of the Lord will burn against you if you don't obey what I'm saying to you, and he will quickly destroy you. Yes. So in other words, like I'm going to ask you not to marry these people, so let's just say they do marry these people, I'm going to destroy you according to what you're saying. As you're saying, that's us as Christians. So God gives us commandments. God says, you know, love me, do this tithe, obey me, and if you don't do that, then I will quickly I think think that the principle translates to Christians. He's not writing to Christians here, so he is, but he Israelites. So so they were Christians, they were at Christ, yet they were looking forward to Christ. So in the New Testament, God reaffirms these things, and he reaffirms the fact that he does punish, and then he punishes with a heavy hand, and that if he doesn't punish you on occasion for your sin, then and you're not really a son but how can But how can you qualify that punishment? So why why can't punishment? But what I think when you're being punished, I think you know you're being punished. I've always viewed punishment in the form of misery, in the form of internal struggle, emptiness. Right, this is coming from a kid who didn't get punished for going to jail. So so you just think there is no punishment in life. That's not true. Your cooking out the breakfast is true. So I think I think that the consequence for us, I think that they're I think that having a healthy This is why even in the New Testament tells us to fear God, is because even though I'm not going to go to Hell, now, Jesus differentiates. No, Jesus says, hey, don't just fear the person who can kill your body, feel the person. Fear the person who can kill your soul, right, send you to hell. So Jesus is differentiating between everyday life consequences for our life and punishment from God and Hell. So he separates the two. Paul drives that separation deeper, the difference between everyday life consequences the punishment will come for our sin Versus, and and we see it in uh Anonias and Saphirah. We see it in others. Right, we see that immediate judgment from God and then to he's establishing in the very first few chapters of Christianity, I haven't changed. And then finally, the author of Hebrews goes, dude, you're on your way to heaven because you have a you have a high priest who's paid the price for you. Right, he's the king, who is the high priest who paid the price for you. But that doesn't mean you're free from having the judgment of God yet minus, so you should continue to fear God. I don't disagree with anything you're saying, other than the application of punishment of sin, because I think all of our listeners that have ever been punished by God know that they were punished by God. No, no, I have been punished by God. I feel it. But I'm saying is it's not out to get to use zapu, and it's certainly not. If you disobey, I'm going to destroy you. And so God's punishment, his reaction towards sin has completely changed. How do we know this because Jesus said in John one seventeen. He says, Moses came to bring you the law, but meaning that's not the case with Jesus. But I have come to bring you truth and grace and to fulfill the law. Jesus also, well, that's not in that statement. But yes, right, he comes to fulfill the law. But fulfillment of the right. Fulfillment of the law means, you know, to fulfill the sacrifices he's talking about. He's the fulfillment of everything that isn't done. But now that it's done. So the last couple of days we've read the ten commandments, let's just look at those ten. The fact that Jesus fulfilled the law for adultery, he fulfilled the law for for think about for murder, does not mean he takes us off the hook for adult Well, I know, but think about what you're saying, so on the hook. Fulfilling the law means I'm trying, trying, trying to do do do, do do and and but we can't do enough. That's that's that's obed and obey the law. We we we can can obey the laws of God. Otherwise he wouldn't have told us to. But I'm talking about don't because we're sinners, I know. But it's a choice, it's not it's not a compulsion. This is a great debate, by the way, and I but what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is the fulfillment of the law means you no longer have to strive. You no longer have to striva not for salvation, but for holiness. You do. I would say that there's there's He tells us all the work at it, sure in the New Testament. But again we're saying the same things. So we have to strive holiness even though we don't have to strive for salvation. The ingredient in this debate, this thing comes from holiness. The ingredient in this debate is punishment. That's the only thing that matters. Well, I would say that you're focusing on the wrong thing. His promises are the promises right, So his promises are blessing. There's a flip side to every blessing. If then every blessing has Again Again, I'm not disagreeing with a single comment you're saying. It's just that your interpretation of punishment and consequences for sin, I think I'm not the difference in punishment, you are all of the last three days I focused on the promises, the blessings. Well, well, I believe that punishments ignore it isn't doesn't mean I'm just saying if you want to talk about your view about it, I'm not saying that we shouldn't. You're saying focus. What I'm saying is what's your view on it, which means you have to focus if you're going to talk about the view. I'm not saying live my life focusing on it. I'm just saying, in this debate, you have to have a a Here's what I would suggest. Here's what I suggest. When you sleep at night, you should have Chris's view. When you live there in the day, you should have mine. Go to bed at night knowing that you're at peace with God, wake up in the morning working to not go against God's commands. And by the way, that's a fair way to live. Yes, and under my view, those are the still the same things. I don't know what your motivation is under your view to do the right thing. God threatens us with consequences of our sin, and that's why he says fear me. Yeah, right, And that view as you're not my child. If I don't discipline you regularly. I view it as fearful of missing out of the blessings of God. And I view it as God invites us to serve him because we want to, which is a much stronger motivation than we have to. So so in the Old Testament, it's you don't you wish that you had a church full of people who wanted to obey God? And that is the challenge, which is why Paul said, and that's what we still continue. That's superior, but he still has a baseline. Yeah, there's consequences, I understand, but he's good and grace graceful. Peter tells us that God is not slack concerning his promises, but he's patient. So it's the sin that God was patient the Old Testament, I agree. It is the only difference between what you and I are saying is the punishment side of things. So the principles, reading all the verses in the Bible, and you're just choosing which ones you want to listen to, that's not true at all. That's not true. We've got a lot of bonus material. I believe every verse, in every concept. The only difference is I don't believe that God. I just don't see the God in the Old Testament being different from the God in the New Testament. I believe that God himself is the same. I believe that God's reaction to us is completely different. I think the only salvation is the difference. Yeah, well that's yeah, that's going to be a agree to this. That's great. Yeah, well that man three and a half extra minutes. Well, this is the longest we've ever gone by far. All Right, this is a great debate. Okay, we will see you next time on the Bible. Guys,