Bible Guys Classics: Romans 9

Hey, everybody, we're the Bible guys, and if you're just tuning in recently, just know that we are showing a little bit of reruns for a few months, and then we'll be back bigger and better than ever on August thirty first, because behind the scenes we're taking a hiatus to do some very important things. Yeah, we're building building out a new studio and we've got some new structure. Super excited about it. So August thirty first, brand new content. But in the meantime, enjoy some of our greatest hits. Hey, guys, welcome to the Bible Guys. Today we're actually talking about God's selection of Israel. Really excited about today's passage. Yeah, there's a lot of complexities and controversies in this past, and that's so we'll see how we can step in all of that. He's Kyle and I'm Jeff, and we're the Bible guys. Yeah, So before we get into some of the complex stuff here in Romans chapter nine, we're gonna play a little game this or that. Know, in the history fun. You and Chris seem to be on opposite ends when it comes to certain preferences and things. You guys, Yeah, with his preferences, he's usually wrong and you're right. Yeah. Okay, So based I'm gonna ask a series of questions and. Jeff doesn't even know the questions, don't look at him, and so we're just gonna see his preference on these things. So, okay, would you rather live on a beach or in a cabin in the woods? Kevin in the woods? Okay, So no doubt on that one. Yeah, I figure that one for me for sure. Beach, Yes, yes, I wish we had like a beach that didn't have coal in. It because going like ankle deep in the ocean. Yeah, you know, I've been I've been around the ocean several times in the last several months. I haven't actually gone out and gotten wet in the ocean. So I like to look at water, but I don't get in it. Yeah, I just I just like it. But I see the I see the people in the woods. Yeah. So we're different on the one, all right. Would you rather that's a tough one. Would you rather pet a tiger or ride a bowl? Really? Okay? Just because man, it's just three point seven seconds on a bull named flu Mantu, right that that's in the whole Timogras. So it's actually funny because I actually wrapped my head around this one for probably too long. I actually say the way I thought about this one for some reason. Peta tiger. I think I'd go for it because when I see write a ball. Now we're talking, we don't know how long you have to be under the bowl. But when I see videos of the. Bulls, just stop, I feel like I would get tossed and stop somebody, We're a tiger. I'm just gonna take my chance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd love to do either one. Yeah, but yeah, if I had to choose one of the other, ride a book. Okay, so although at my age now I'm fifty one, maybe I shouldn't write it, but that's all right. Would you rather have to hunt and butcher your own meat or never meet again? I think you're hunting, but you're my own meat. Yes, yeah, you're talking to that. Yeah, no problem. I think I'd go with that one too. I could not imagine going to the rest of my life and not having a steak. I just I just can't imagine that. So I'm going to go with the same one as you. So a big deer hunter Turkey Hunter. Let's write stuff all. Right, So this next one would rather be fluent in every language, which we maybe beneficial for you, or be able to play every instrument. Oh, fluent in every language? Okay, so we're different and I'm gonna go and play every instrument. Yeah. I just think mainly because I don't know what the fluid like. How from my experience the minimal trial, like most of the places I've been, I just have to know Spanish, and even then, even though I got to like Spanish three in high school. Terrible, it uries myself. But yeah, being fluent every age would be pretty cool. Yeah. So you know, I've been in so many countries and then just never know what people are saying. Yes, so there's a little bit of yeah, I'm constantly saying in my transaction. Oh, wouldn't that be amazing though, just like translation? Yeah, but then also being able to pick up any instrument, like that's cool. I think a musician, I love music. Yeah, but maybe it doesn't seem that complicated to you, but for me, you can hand the guitar. I don't even know what to do with the idea of being fluent in any instrument just sounds pretty epic. Okay, So last one, so you kind of have visions of you being dude. Yeah, and that's and I just would be that. You know, we always say at heritage, you know, it's not about it's not about us, you know. And I think maybe God didn't give me that ability because he because you'd be a rock star. I'd be looking for that soul. Okay, last one, for one day only, would you able to fly or become invisible? Fly? Yeah, I'm agree with that one. Yeah. Yeah. Do you like being invisible? Like I see the draw the people, but it feels kind of creepy. It's creepy. Yeah, yeah, it's creepy. You're just a creep at that point. With the advantage of being invisible for somebody that's not trying to do something bad. Is yeah, like I'm not trying to get intel lot. I don't want to know what people are saying. I don't want to know that. Yeah, I don't work for the CIA. Yeah I could care. That's about that. But fly man, that sounds like a great day. I'm not a Navy seal. I don't need to be, you know, invisible, that's right. Hey, So one of the things we want to want to encourage you to do before we get into this passage is make sure to like or subscribe. And one of the things that I've noticed for me when I open up in the morning, when I open up my Spotify app or even if it's YouTube, I'm. Instantly being hit. It's not even alerts, it's just it's just telling me there's a new episode. Yeah, and that helps so much. I just want to encourage you to like, subscribe. That's all those types of things that way you get those notifications, and even if it's for a week from now, you're reminded just to catch up. So I just want to encourage people to do that. As we get into Romans chapter nine, do you want to set anything up for the listeners? So you know, he deals with a couple of difficult topics that I think are controversial and Christians have been kind of disagreeing about these for about five hundred years or so. Oh wow, So I'm not sure we'll solve it today in the next twenty minutes, but yes, you know, so give us a little bit of grace and you know as we plot through it. Yes, all right, So here's what Paul had to say, with Christ as my witness. I speak with utter truthfulness. My conscience and the Holy Spirit confirm it. My heart is filled with bitter sorrow and unending grief for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed, caught off from Christ, if that would save them. They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God's adopted children. God revealed his glory to them, He made covenance with them, and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping Him and receiving his wonderful promises. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned, and he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise. Amen. Well, then has. God failed to fill his promise to Israel. No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God's people. Being descendants of Abraham doesn't make them truly Abraham's children. The scriptures say, Isaac is a son through whom your descendants will be counted, though Abraham had other children too. This means that Abraham's physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of that promise are considered to be Abraham's children. For God had promised I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son. This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebecca, she gave birth to twins. But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes. He calls people not according to their good or bad works. She was told, your older son will serve your younger son. In the words of scriptures, I love Jacob, but I rejected Esau. Are we saying then that God was unfair? Of course not, for God said to Moses, I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I'll show compassion to anyone I choose. So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. The scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth. So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. Well, then you. Might say, why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do? No, don't say that. Who are you a mere human being to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, why have you made me like this? When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into In the same way. Even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he's very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles. Concerning the Gentiles, God says this in the prophecy of Hoseiah. Those who are not my people, I will now call my people, and I will love those whom I did not love before. And then at the place where they were told, you are not my people, there will be called there they will. Be called the children of the Living God. And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out, though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remn that will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth quickly and with finality. And Isaiah said the same thing in another place. If the Lord of Heaven's armies had not spared a few of our children, we would have been wiped out like Sodom, destroyed like Amura. So what does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God's standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place. But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded. Why not Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path. God warned them of this in the scriptures when he said, I'm placing a stone in Israel that makes people stumble. In fact, actually I think I got a little firm ahead of myself. I cover that the next day I finished it. Yeah, I'm placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trust in Him will never be disgraced, which Rectal talking about a little bit tomorrow morning. So well we can pick up, yes, the rest of that. There's so much through this. This chapter is substantial, but I think it was important for you to get to verse thirty. Quite honestly, what does this all mean? Because you can kind of get in the weeds on some of these things that have had some very big theological decisions made or positions taken as a result of this passage. But anyways, let's start at the beginning of chapter nine, and he's saying, you know, because we've just come through God loves us, and you know, we've been delivered from law, we've been delivered from judgment, and nothing can ever separate us from God's loves. So because of that, if God's for us, who could ever be against us? Well then he pivots a little bit and goes into let's talk about Israel, and Paul says, with Christ as my witness. I'm speaking with utter truthfulness. And then he says, my heart is filled with bitter sorrow and unending grief for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. He said, I'd be willing to be forever cursed, cut off from Christ if that would save them. Wow. What a commitment. So regardless of everything else he says in this passage, he loves his people so much that he's saying, if God would do it, I'd be willing to go to Hell so that all of my people could be saved. Right. That's a pretty incredible commitment to evangelism, yep, to the importance of the Gospel for everybody and his is I think it kind of inspires me. I pray regularly that God would break my heart with the things that break his heart. And that's what Paul saying is his heart is so broken for his people he'd be willing to go to Hell in order for them to be sayd. Yeah, especially as somebody who is within the last few years of this as a newer believer, right, I mean, so he's kind of wrestling with what he grew up knowing in the people that he loved and the law and the israel all that stuff. And then here he is kind of face with this, with this idea of salvation in Christ alone. And so you could tell definitely like he's got this new found like God's willing to lay down his life for me. And now he's almost saying, like I almost want to take the. Place right so that the Israelites could be right with God. Yeah, this is a couple of decades into his walk. Oh is it okay with Christ? But it's still you know, he didn't grow up a Christian. Right right, right, and so yeah, yeh caught up on the timeline there, But still it's just somebody who you could tell it just has that heart, like you said, and he's a very passionate guy seeing all of his right, he's passion He's saying, I'm willing to be caught off from Christ if that would save them. So then he's he's dealing with a controversy among the Christians because you remember, Christianity comes out of Judaism, right, so it comes out of the Jewish faith. Christianity is a fulfillment of the Jewish search for a Messiah. And so you know Paul was a Jewish Pharisee. He grew up in the Jewish belief system all those kinds of things, and the Jewish religion is built around the idea that God selected the Jews as his chosen people, and so culturally there's an opinion God just likes us better, right, that's kind of he's pushing back on that just a little bit. The reason why God chose the Jews was because Jesus was going to come from the family of Abraham. God had promised Abraham that through him the whole world would be blessed, right, and that that blessing would be the Messiah, the one who comes and solves the sin problem for humanity. That was the promise. So then as he tells the stories of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Esau and all those, he's referencing the fact that God had promised that the Messiah would come and that the promised people would come. But he's pushing back in this storyline against the idea that they're elite just because they're elite, right, Oh, God likes us better. Instead, he's saying God chooses who he wants to choose, and God rejects those he's going to reject, right, and that's a pretty strong thing. So he says to what like verse fifteen, R, I want to choose and I'll show campassion. Yeah, right, But before that, what he's saying is, just because you are of a specific population group here, just because you're in Israelite, doesn't mean you're one of God's chosen people, right, which is a shock to the Jews that would be reading this book, right, Yes, what do you mean? And he's well, just because you are related that Abraham doesn't automatically mean that you're one of God's children. This would have been a shock to a Jewish person. And then he points out, well, Abraham had had other children, right, and they weren't the chosen ones. So just because you're related to Abraham doesn't mean that you're chosen. Let's apply it today. A lot of people grow up and go, well, I was baptized Catholic when I was a baby. I'm on my way to heaven. And if Paul was writing to you, he'd say, just because you were born into a Christian family doesn't mean you're a Christian. I was born a Christian as well. I've always been a Christian. Oh, I grew up in a Lutheran family, and I've always been a Christian or I don't ever remember not believing in Jesus right. And what Paul would say is, wait a minute, you are not in God's family because of the family you were born into. Right, Jesus says in John chapter three, you must be born again. So Paul is pushing back on You're not good with God just because your family was good with God. Yes, you're not in with God just because you related to people who were in with God. So each of us stand individually on our own. That's the big idea of this passage. Yes, yes, I agree, And even as it goes further along, it's kind of going back to something we talked about last week with Chris and I just but even in verse sixteen, one of the things that says in the Life Application Study Bible that I think is so important. Again it's it's a theme here, but it says, this is a footnote. It says the fallacy of gaining salvation by human effort remains as strong as ever. People still think good intentions are the key to unlock the door to eternal life. Isn't that true today? Oh? Yeah, By the time they get to try the lock, they will find that the key does not fit. Others imagine that their efforts are building an invisible ladder to heaven made up of service, family, position, reputation, good work, and desire, although none of these rungs will support a feather. People are so busy trying to reach God they completely miss the truth that God has already reached down to them. We cannot earn God's mercy. We could, it would not be mercy. And it's just a reminder because. I mean, how many times you meet with somebody, you know, become a businessman. Like your walk with with Christ. Like he's like, but yeah, I do some good things. I go to church once in a while. You know, I try. I try to give and I try, you know, to delimit my cussing. You know. It's like it's all the lists of It's the list, right and faithful my family, Yeah, exactly, And it's just it's just a list of things. So Paul highlights. Just before that, Paul highlights the idea of Abraham and then of Isaac. You know, Abraham had other children, but it was Isaac that the promise came through. That's what God had promised, and then God said it's going to be through Jacob, not Jacob and Esau were twins. Yeah, and there's that phrase, you know, Jacob have I whereas I love Jacob, but I rejected Jacob. So there's other translations that would say Jacob, have I loved and Esau have I hated? And that's a shocking thing. People go, oh, my goodness. Even before they were born, God hated Isa. So we have to remember Paul is not talking about individuals here. Paul's talking about the Israelite or the Jewish lineage. So he's talking about the people of Israel and the so Esau became the father of Edam, a whole nation of people that rejected God and went to idol worship, and then Jacob became the father of all of Israelite people who sometimes honored God, sometimes worshiped idols, but for the most part they were the people of God carrying the message of God to humanity. So God is not saying, oh, I don't like that guy. I don't myself. Yeah, especially Gause. Jacob, it wasn't like he was killing it anyways. Was a liar, He was a cheater. Jacob was Jacob deceiver. Deceiver, Yeah right there. So it's not that Jacob was a good guy and Esau was a bad guy. He wasn't like, oh, man, Jacob's going to be great Esa. He thinks instead, what he's looking God is looking beyond the individual to the people, and it was ultimately going to be the people of Israel, from whom Jesus was going to come, and so that's what he was choosing there. It wasn't based on their behaviors. It wasn't based on God's preferences of I like that guy, I disliked that guy. And so because of that sometimes there have been doctrines built up and you can kind of go through I'm going to show mercy on who I choose, and I'm going to judge that whoever I choose. Looking at the fact that Paul is talking about the big picture of the nationalities and he just happens to be talking about the fathers of those nations, it seems like maybe he's just attacking those individuals, and that's not what's happening. But there have been doctrines that have risen over the last five hundred years that imply or flat out say God chooses some people from heaven, and God chooses some people to go to Hell, and that's just his choice from the beginning, and I would categorically reject that idea. You know, the Bible says that God's not willing that any would perish, but that all would come to Patance. And Timothy, that's in Peter. In Timothy, he says that God's desires that everybody would come to faith in Christ. The Bible says, whosoever will may come. For every verse that somebody can show in the Bible that says, oh, God chose some people for heaven and some people for Hell, I can show you a verse that says, you know that God's not willing that any would perish. But always underpenents they run kind of on parallel tracks. So we have to be able to reconcile these two issues. They're extremely complex because God does have complete and total foreknowledge of the future, and at the same time, we do have a free will. And God's desire is that we would all come to faith in Christ. God's knowledge is many won't, and so we live in the tension of those two things. And so I always say the biggest issue in this passage is not God chooses some and rejects some one. I don't believe that's true. We either respond to the Gospel or we don't. But I think the bigger issue here is Paul's grief for those who don't know Christ. That's the bigger one. I think the bigger thing to focus on is my heart needs to break for the things to break the heart of God, I need to have a great desire for everybody to come to faith. The consequence of not knowing Christ is eternity without Him in Hell forever. And when you get a real theology of hell and how horrible and terrible it is, we wouldn't want anybody to go there, and a good and gracious God wouldn't desire anybody to go there. So I have to be careful about the kind of monster we create if we determine that God has decided in advance that he wants certain people, wants people to go to Hell. Yeah, and I agree with that. And it's also I understand that that's a very controversial take. So that's your Jeff over here. We're but it's even interesting, Like the most famous you know quoted Verson in all Sure, for God so loved the world and love, and that he gives only someth that whoever believes in him shall not perish. So it's it really is. It's really right there saying like whoever. Believes in him, So it's not based on your you know who your parents were, It's not based on whoever believes in him, And I think that's really important. So then basically what's introduced here is God's foreknowledge in God's choice, and he gives mercy to whom he gives mercy, uh, and he judges those he's going to judge. Then Paul says, so is God fair? How unfair? Is God? Right? That's kind of and I think we have to be extremely careful on both sides. For the person who says it's pure like we have no part in responding to God's grace, it's pure election, or for the person who says it's not fair that God would send anybody to hell. On both sides, we have to be careful that we are not judges of God's morality, like somehow our morality supersedes God's morality, or that my morality can comprehend God's. So for the one who goes, I've got it totally worked out. I understand. I have this strong opinion that God has preordained who's going to heaven and who's going to Hell, and it's his choice. You got to be very careful that you're to claim that your morality can understand or comprehend God's morality. To be very careful. We can't raperence. God's ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. God reminds us of that multiple times, So be careful. We can't put God in a box. The other side, the kind of person who goes what hell is real? And God's going to send people to hell? What then? For that person? We have to be careful not to say that my morality is higher than God's mereley, somehow I would make a better decision than God. We just have to live in the tension between God's foreknowledge and humanity's responsibility. And so this is what Paul's trying to say. He says in verse fourteen, Are we saying then that God is unfair? Of course not? Yeah? Right? And then down a little bit further verse nineteen. Well, then you might say, why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them to do. He says, no, don't say that. Who are you a mere human being to argue with God? Should the thing that was created? Say the one who created it? Why have you made me like this? Right? Exactly what you're saying. So we don't have any right to make demands on God. Instead, we just have to live in the tension of the two. And I think if we're willing to live in the tension and not fight over those issues and instead have the heart that Paul starts with, and that is I wished everybody, And. That's the part I was going to just kind of think here when it comes to this idea of people being elected and whatnot, Like, what's the desire that to want to share your faith if it's all a moot point that's already been chosen, predestined, Whereas I think you go back to the heart of Paul. His whole heart was I wanted. I'm doing this, I'm proclaiming the good news. He's traveled backed, he's doing all these things to bring more people to know Jesus. So right there at the show, we're going to keep unpacking this idea of this idea of election over the next scalpal chapters. So good, it's gonna be fun. Yes, all right, cool, Well, we'll join you or we see guys tomorrow. Make sure it again like subscribe, follow just so that you guys get this in your inbox or one to the Bible guys dot com at the end of this episode and that way you can subscribe and get a daily update in the morning to remind you to tune in. But we'll see you guys tomorrow.