Transcription

Connor:
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Chris:
It’s Friday. Friday! Yeah, Friday’s a good day. Yay! Everybody loves Friday.

Jeff:
Everybody loves Friday. T-G-I-F. Except me. I love working so much. I hate the idea of taking a weekend off.

Chris:
Well, don’t you only work on Sundays anyway?

Jeff:
Yeah, as a pastor. The rest of the time I just sleep under my desk. That’s right.

Chris:
Sleep under my desk! That’s so funny. Yeah. And so all through the years, I have actually had people joke about that, but I’ve actually had people legitimately say, Oh, I think a huge number of people go, they go, what else do you do? Yeah. What else do you do besides preaching on Sunday? That’s hilarious.

Jeff:
Yeah, because everything that happens on the weekend is just mad. It’s just magical. We got together this morning. Yeah. Hey, what should we talk about? Hey, how do we get 350 volunteers to do all these things? You know, it just, it just happens. It just happens.

Chris:
Yeah. Magically. It’s so funny. Okay. So today we are starting off, even though it’s Friday, we’re not doing what made Chris mad because we do and we don’t. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t.

Jeff:
That makes me mad. Oh, there you go. What made Jeff mad today? Is that we didn’t do what made Chris mad this week. And last week, didn’t we do what made Chris happy? Some dumb thing. Oh yeah, you’re right.

Chris:
And it turned into what made Chris mad.

Jeff:
Okay.

Chris:
But today we’re doing a different segment and it’s written in as Stump the Pastor. Okay.

Jeff:
And by the way… Which I think we just told everybody what’s going to happen in a couple of days.

Chris:
What do you mean?

Jeff:
Because they haven’t heard the episode where you get mad about being happy.

Chris:
Oh, that’s hilarious. Yeah. No, no, no. It would have already played. It would have already played.

Jeff:
Oh, okay. It already played. I’m getting messed up in the time warp that we’re in where we record these. We record and they get released on different times. You’re right. They’ve already heard it.

Chris:
Okay. So, by the way, side note, if you ever want to write us in a question that you want us to answer, Or if you want to write in, honestly, anything, the best way to do it is to send us an email at info at the Bible guys.com. And, or you can comment through any one of our, you know, YouTube or anything like that. Just make comments through Google, whatever it is. And we will get those and hopefully, you know, consider to, to talk about them. So today is written by Jeremy P. And Jeremy writes this. Now an avid hunter. Yes. Meaning apparently he wasn’t before. Yes, but he is now, but now an avid hunter. Yes. I’ve been raised to enjoy the outdoors and provide for my family through nature. Recently. I’ve been wondering about whether Jesus ate red meat or if he was a pescetarian. Is there any evidence confirming either? Thanks. My fiance, my fiance, Lynn, Lindsay, and I love the show. Oh, well, thank you, Jeremy P for saying that at the very end.

Jeff:
Thank you. Pescatarian is somebody that eats fish and vegetables.

Chris:
Fish and vegetables, yep.

Jeff:
Okay. So we know Jesus did eat fish. Of course. And we know that Jesus did eat vegetables. Yes. But the question, so hey, by the way, I’m an avid hunter also, Jeremy, so way to go. So good question. So straight to it, the Bible talks a lot about Jesus serving fish and he lived around the Sea of Galilee. That’s going to be the easiest and cheapest and most easily replenished food source for the people around the Sea of Galilee is going to be fish.

Chris:
Yeah, because red meat was a delicacy. It was a privilege. It was usually reserved for special occasions.

Jeff:
And oftentimes a man’s wealth would not be in the coins he owned, it would be in the sheep and the cows he owned. So you and I, we’ve worked with the Pokots in northwest Kenya, and they don’t use cash. So a goat is worth about 35 US dollars, a cow is worth about 5 goats, a camel is worth about five cows, right? So that’s kind of how they, and so they would trade based on that. So you don’t want your, you don’t want to eat your money, right? Instead, you want your money to keep multiplying. So as long as they can reproduce, they typically won’t kill their animals, unless it’s the fatted calf, like Jesus told the story about, where they’d be fattening one up for a big family party, but the rest they would, they want them producing and reproducing until they can’t. And then it would be after that, that they would eat them. So a lot of the red meat that people would have eaten back in Jesus’ day would have been fairly tough, unless it was that fatted calf that was being celebrated. So that’s part of it. But what we do know is that Jesus wholly and completely celebrated Passover. And the requirement in Passover is roasted lamb. Yep. Right. So at least 30 times, probably. So he died when he was 33 and a half, roughly, as we estimate. And if that’s the case, let’s say the first three years, he didn’t eat any meat. But for 30 years, he ate at least one time a year. He was eating roasted lamb.

Chris:
Yeah. And we know this because it was required.

Jeff:
Yeah.

Chris:
And then, and not only that, but then Jesus also, you know, usually a pescetarian would be somebody who wouldn’t condone the eating of red meat. Whereas Jesus actually taught parables, talking about, like, for instance, in Luke 15, you know, slaying the fatted calf and then compared it to the kingdom of heaven. saying that, you know, those who come in who don’t know God, there’s rejoicing and there’s banquets and there’s feasts and things like that. And so he often, you know, used those in his illustrations, which means he didn’t, you know, speak against it.

Jeff:
Yeah, he never spoke derogatorily about red meat. And then, you know, from those teachings then, Jesus would have uh, only eaten clean red meat. So Jesus probably never had, um, a bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich, right? So he never had a pork chop, right? Those kinds of things, uh, probably never ate, you know, um, even when it came to seafood, he would eat fish, but he would have never eaten shrimp or lobster or crawfish or anything like that. Clams, oysters, right? And that was because he was Jewish, right? Because so within their law, they didn’t eat unclean, uh, foods. And those are in the law, right? And then, well, what God said was unclean. Right, right. And then, but the clean animals would be those that chew the cud and have a split hoof. So they could eat the camel, they could eat the cow, they could eat the lamb or the sheep, whatever, the goat, they could eat those things. So, is the camel? Yeah, yeah. I don’t know. Can they eat camel? I can’t remember if they eat camel or not.

Chris:
I did not know that last thing that you said.

Jeff:
Split hoofs. Oh yeah, it’s a split hoof. That’s how they had to do it. So like a pig has a split hoof but doesn’t chew its cud. And so they couldn’t eat it. But a lamb or a sheep has a split hoof and chews its cud so you can eat that one. Or a cow has a split hoof but you can’t eat a horse. It doesn’t have a split hoof.

Chris:
Wow. Well, I do know camels have split hooves.

Jeff:
Right. Right. Okay. Yeah. But I don’t know if they, do they chew their cut? Yeah, they do. I think so. I think so. Anyways, what I’m trying to say is, uh, there were these rules and Jesus would have followed the rules with regard to clean and unclean food. Uh, and that would have been acceptable. We know that he at Passover at least would have had to have eaten roasted lamb. That was acceptable. But there’s a verse in Romans chapter 14, where Paul says in verses two and three, one man’s faith allows him to eat everything. Another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not. And the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does. For God has accepted him. Right? And so even back in the Bible times, they were arguing over whether or not it would be better to only eat, be a vegetarian or only a pescatarian, or it’s perfectly fine to eat red meat. And Paul is like, hey, don’t fight about it. Right? Whatever you’re doing, do for God. God gave permission for all the things. But if you’re going to argue about what’s better, don’t don’t pass judgment on the other person. Let them let them do what they want to do on it.

Chris:
And so my snarky self would also add into it, and yet the Bible clearly says that he gave permission for all things. Even that verse alone says, stop griping to me for reading red meat. Right? Like, stop making fun of me for reading red meat.

Jeff:
Yeah, but he’s saying that the person who’s struggling a little bit with it, don’t judge them for the fact that they’re struggling. Go ahead and let them take a stricter rule, and a stricter rule is perfectly fine. So he’s endorsing the idea that people are taking a stricter rule as an act of worship for God, and that’s perfectly fine. Don’t judge them for it.

Chris:
So what he’s really saying is the people who gripe at you just love them.

Jeff:
Love them anyways. Yeah, don’t fight about it. No need to fight. I’m just being snarky. No need to fight and pass the catch up.

Chris:
That’s right. Pass the catch up, right.

Jeff:
Or the A1. Pass the A1. Pass the A1.

Chris:
There you go. That’s great. Matthew 23.

Jeff:
Okay. So today Jesus is warning against the religious leaders. Right. And this is very significant now in Matthew chapter 23, verses 1 through 12. It goes, then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. Ouch. For they don’t practice what they teach. They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden. Everything they do is for show. on their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with scripture verses inside and they wear robes with extra long tassels and they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the seats of honor in the synagogues and they love to receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces and to be called rabbi. Don’t let anyone call you rabbi for you have only one teacher and all of you are equal as brothers and sisters and don’t address anyone here on earth as father for only God in heaven is your spiritual father. And don’t let anyone call you teacher, for you have only one teacher, the Messiah. The greatest among you must be a servant, but those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” The same idea in Mark chapter 12 verse 38, Jesus also taught, Beware the teachers of religious law, for they like to parade around in flowing robes and receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces. And how they love the seats in the marketplace. the seats of honor in the synagogues and in the head table at banquets. Yet they shamelessly cheat widows out of their property and then pretend to be pious by making long prayers in public. Because of this, they’ll be more severely punished. And then in Luke chapter 20, verse 45, it says, Then with the crowds listening, he turned to his disciples and said, Beware these teachers of religious law, for they like to parade around in flowing robes and love to receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces. And how they love the seats of honor in the synagogues! and the head table at banquets, yet they shamelessly cheat widows out of their property and then pretend to be pious by making long prayers in public. Because of this, they will be severely punished.”

Chris:
Yeah, wow. So, you know where my mind goes to. What am I going to say? Do you know what I’m going to say immediately?

Jeff:
Well, you’re going to be grumpy about fake leaders that make a bunch of noise.

Chris:
Yes, of course. Well, and by the way, not in today’s day and age, because I mean, I’m certainly grumpy about those people, but I’m talking about just the Pharisees. So in the Bible, because so many times when I, when I gripe against the Pharisees, you come to their defense in some ways and say, but they were trying or whatever. And I think what happens is the tendency is for you to give them way more credit than I do. Right. And what I’m saying is, is like, now this is the example that says they don’t deserve anything. Because it says, beware, it says, number one, they don’t follow their example. And then it says they don’t practice what they preach. They crush people. And then he says this definitive statement, everything they do is for show. Everything. Yeah. Right. And so that’s why I give them no credit. So all the times where you’ve swayed me into giving them credit, I renounce all of it.

Jeff:
You renounce it.

Chris:
I’m like, they’re just a bunch of religious manipulators.

Jeff:
Well, that’s what they thought religion was. Yes. They thought religion was the show. Yes. Right. The piety of it. And that’s what I’m saying. I don’t know that anybody got recruited to, you know, a Pharisee college to be a bad guy. Right. Right. They were inspired in the same way that people, other people who might not be real followers of Christ or whatever, are inspired to go to seminary or to become a priest or whatever. A lot of times they’re inspired by the goodness of that, the perceived goodness of that person.

Chris:
So you’re saying that they actually, in their own hearts, thought that they were trying to be good.

Jeff:
Yeah, I think so. And yet Jesus says… Otherwise, why would you waste your time on this? Right? It’s an oppressive life. But it’s an oppressive lifestyle. Right? And so that’s what I’m saying. I think they thought that’s how you please God, because their religion was only laws. And look how good they were at their laws. They never saw the heart. So what Jesus is flipping upside down, and the people are so amazed by, is God’s looking at the heart. The heart is what’s important. He does tell them, go ahead and do what they practice and obey whatever they tell you.

Chris:
Oh, I see what you’re saying. You’re saying that the idea of the heart is such a revolutionary idea that Jesus brought.

Jeff:
It’s totally revolutionary.

Chris:
Yeah, okay, all right, all right, which I did know that, but this is an application to the Pharisees, which I’m considering.

Jeff:
But they thought their religion was the show. The show is the religion.

Chris:
So in other words, it doesn’t really necessarily matter if I cheat the widows out of their house, because as long as it follows the law.

Jeff:
Yeah, as long as it’s within the right law, but my heart is, I’m greedy.

Chris:
I’m not disobeying God because I’m not disobeying a law. And you’re saying in that way, they considered themselves righteous.

Jeff:
That’s right. That’s right. That’s all I’m saying. So I don’t think that they were good guys. I think they were bad guys. I don’t think they knew they were bad guys. All of them.

Chris:
All right. I’m willing to receive some of that.

Jeff:
But on the other side, I’m willing to accept the fact that it says everything they do is for show. Yeah. So Jesus isn’t giving them any credit. None. Other than the fact that they do. And he does give them a credit a couple times where he says, you guys tithe on your mint and your cumin and your table spices, which you should. Right. But just don’t leave the more important things undone. Right? Justice and mercy. You neglect the most important things. And so I think that that’s what Jesus is trying to say is don’t neglect the most important things. Even here he says you should practice and obey whatever they tell you. But he’s also implying just don’t do what they do because they neglect the most important things. Right? So your lifestyle matters. Whether or not you’re obeying God matters. but they leave it at that point.

Chris:
Don’t overlook the fact that he says, for they don’t practice what they teach as well. That’s exactly right. Right? So that, so that means that even the law that they teach, they don’t, they don’t follow.

Jeff:
Yeah, unless you’re taking it, as Jesus had mentioned, if you hate a person, it’s the same as killing them. They’re not practicing what they teach. Because they didn’t kill anybody, but man, they walk around with hate in their heart. They didn’t sleep with somebody who wasn’t their wife, but man, they walk around lust in their heart all the time.

Chris:
Which, by the way, side note, that’s the reason why Jesus said those things. right? In the Sermon on the Mount, what he was trying to do is he wasn’t trying to say to you, let me tell you how important lust is. What he’s saying is you think you’re righteous because you didn’t murder anybody, but I’m telling you that if you hate your brother and you call him fool, it’s the same sin. Yeah, it’s the same sin.

Jeff:
The fact that you didn’t actually end his life, it’s hatred that leads you to that point.

Chris:
Right. And what he’s saying is you’re guilty of breaking the law.

Jeff:
That’s right. So in this one, he ends it with, and you’re stealing old widow’s houses. Right. Which I think he’s dealing with covetousness there. Greed. Right? That’s what he’s doing is, just because you did it legally, your heart is still greedy, which makes it bad, right? You can do the right thing the wrong way, and it’s wrong, right? And that’s what he’s talking, I think, here, is that he’s going after your heart. You do not do the things that your words say. your words, your lifestyle, because he commends them a couple times for their lifestyle. They live very holy lives. Their heart is dead, and that’s why he says you’re like white as sepia, because on the outside you’re painted up real pretty. Everything you do is the right thing, but inside you’re full of dead men’s bones.

Chris:
You know, I think I just, in this very moment, connected some dots in my own life, how I’m wired. For the very first time in my entire life, I just connected some dots right now in this moment. Wow. So it took me a long time to figure out that like, you know, like, like we always make a joke and say, what makes Chris mad today?

Jeff:
Right.

Chris:
Which is appropriate that today was Friday. But, but one of the things that I figured out is you always say, you don’t get mad for you. You get mad for all the people.

Jeff:
Right.

Chris:
But the reality is that is actually true. That is actually true. So like, and my kids and my wife will verify this all the time. So if I’m in a restaurant and there’s bad service, I don’t get mad because I received bad service. The thing that I harp on, and they’ll tell you this all the time, I’m irate for the owner of that restaurant. I’m angry for the owner. I’m like, I can’t believe that that teenager is ruining this guy’s business.

Jeff:
Right?

Chris:
And that’s what I do. That’s the way I’m wired. I’m wired that way constantly.

Jeff:
You’re a champion of the people, Chris.

Chris:
I don’t know why, but you joke, but that’s actually true. I’m actually, in some ways, a champion of the people.

Jeff:
You are. You are.

Chris:
Thank you. Okay, so listen. So you snuck one in there, by the way. The reason why Yeah, that’s right. The reason why I’m so angry at the equivalence of Pharisees today, right? I make no apology about how much I can’t stand church culture when it’s corrupt, right? You know, people who place themselves as judging or better than, or they murmur, they, you know, and I just, and you’ve probably, would you definitively say, There’s no one who dislikes it more than me that you’ve met in your lifetime.

Jeff:
Yeah, you’re very vocal about it.

Chris:
Yeah. And so, but the point is, is I’ve just, here’s the dots I’ve connected in my life. I’m not necessarily mad about me because I survived it. Right. I could have been derailed from it. Right. You know, like all the people in my life could have derailed me. Sure. Right. But they didn’t. I’m mad for the damage that it causes for everybody else and I’ve said that before out loud But I’d never connected that the dots that in the same way The reason why I’m so mad about it is not not on behalf of me. It’s it’s it’s the same Category is what made Chris mad

Jeff:
Yeah, it really is. I think it did damage to you, and you tend to project and say, if it did damage to me, thank God I survived it, but it’s doing damage to others, right? And so I think that it’s a dual thing. There’s a resentment of how dumb a lot of that stuff was in your life, and how frustrating it was for you. But you navigated through it, and then your assumption is that lots of others didn’t, and so it’s their fault.

Chris:
But in my mind, and obviously that’s true, right? A psychologist would definitely confirm that. But in my mind, it’s like 90-10. So it’s like 10% yeah, there’s damage to me, but it’s 90% like, I do this for a living. I’m a pastor.

Jeff:
I would say there was a lot of damage to me too. I just don’t beat that drum all the time. I think you carry it heavily, which is fine. I think that it keeps you constantly making sure that, hey, I want to be the guy that doesn’t just say it, but lives it. Sure. I want to be the guy that tries to create a place that is more in balance with Jesus, because Jesus does say, hey, you should live a good life. He says, practice and obey what they’re telling you. Yeah. So he’s not saying the words they say are bad or the system that they’re trying to manage. They’re saying he’s saying they’re taking advantage of you and they’re hurting you because they think religion is the point. And what I want is the relationship. I want the heart.

Chris:
And he also says they crush people. Yeah. Jesus says they crush people. And that’s, that’s my point. My point is, is that I, my heart goes out to those who’ve been crushed by the church, right? Cause there’s people that are wounded all the time from, you know, the church. And, and I meet people all the time. Oh, I just, I gave up on church a long time ago and I always say, I get it. Right. And I get it. So my heart goes out to saving and rescuing those people as well.

Jeff:
And so then he says, he talks about how you can kind of tell who they are. by how they’re living their life with regard to the expectation for the title that you give them, what place at the party they get to sit, what kind of recognition and honor they’re getting. They’re wearing their clothes just right. They have their verses literally on their sleeve, all that kind of stuff. And he’s He’s trying to say, listen, any pastor that you see, any religious leader that you see, who’s parading through the streets or walking through the lobby, and they’ve got this entourage around them, and they’re wearing just the right clothes, and they’re expecting you to kiss the ring, and they’re expecting you to respect them with the right words. And he’s like, dude, these titles just don’t matter. It doesn’t matter. People don’t need to call you rabbi. They don’t need to call you a teacher. Let’s be honest, there’s only one rabbi. Let’s be honest, there’s only one real teacher. right? So it’s not wrong for people to be respectful, it’s wrong for you and me and anybody that’s in a religious leadership role to expect somebody to treat us any differently than just, you know, respect as a human.

Chris:
Which is why he said, because you’re servants. That’s right. You’re servants of the people. Right, right. Yeah, which is great.

Jeff:
Those who exalt themselves will be humbled, but those who humble themselves will be exalted. Yeah, there’s that paradox. That is great for all of us all day every day, at work, at school, everything.

Chris:
Yeah, and so I would just say, because I obviously capitalize on this aspect of the podcast, I would just say, hey, if you’re somebody out there who maybe you’re like, I’m sort of relating to it because I’m a person that’s been crushed by church politics and I stopped going to church, but I listen to podcasts like this. I read my Bible. I have a personal faith. And I would just say, hey, listen, just understand, as long as you keep it in perspective, God is perfect. God is sinless. God is worthy of our service, right? The church is going to let you down, but it’s only because the people inside the church are imperfect, right? So don’t let that keep you from God. Don’t let it keep you from your faith. Don’t let it keep you from still believing in your faith just as strongly. So survive it, get over it, right? Don’t get over it because those people are worthy of your forgiveness. Get over it because they’re not defining your faith.

Jeff:
Right. You don’t have to follow a bad teacher or somebody who’s self-centered, but we do need people who are ahead of us spiritually. And so find somebody, find somebody who’s a little further down the line than you spiritually, that you can go on this journey with, that you can respect, and that does show honor and respect to others and serve other people. If you can do that, then, hey, it’s way better to go together than it is to go alone.

Chris:
Yeah, that’s great. That’s a great word. Well, hey, that’s our time. And so hopefully we’ll see you on Monday on The Bible Guys.