Transcription

Connor:
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Jeff:
Here we are, Chris.

Chris:
Good morning. Good morning. We talked the whole night through.

Jeff:
Good morning to you. Thank you, Chris. You’re welcome. I was thinking it hasn’t been a great week until you did that. Like, like, like maybe you have forgotten.

Chris:
If that could only be true. If I could change your week by a merry little tune, that would be great. I’d walk into some of our meetings and be like Jeff’s Krabby Lay. Be like, good.

Jeff:
You walk into some of our meetings and Jeff’s Krabby today?

Chris:
Well, don’t you walk into meetings and I’m flustered or crabby?

Jeff:
No. I think, what a glorious person this guy is. Look at you. He’s just like a reflection of the sun all the time. Reflection of the sun. So here we go. Today, you know, Chris, that our commitment to our listeners is that we bring only the finest news. The finest news. From the finest sources on the planet.

Chris:
Yes. And people across the world now understand that news may not be true.

Jeff:
Really? But it’s on the internet, Chris. It’s right here, look, it’s on my phone on the internet. It has to be true. The Babylon Bee. Babylon Bee is, if you don’t know, for English readers, the Babylon Bee is a satire website. Very funny. The headline on this news is, unbeliever converted to Christianity after seeing Christians bicker with each other online. Which is so great. Here it is, Louisville, Kentucky. The angels of heaven rejoice today at the addition of another member of God’s kingdom as a local unbeliever converted to Christianity after seeing Christians bickering with each other online. The man who had spent his entire life attempting to resist the call of the Holy Spirit finally succumbed to the all-powerful drawing of God when he witnessed two professing believers viciously attacking each other on social media. Oh my goodness. This is what I want my life to be like, said Ethan Gregory after following the extended argument online. The way they were insulting each other, the anger I could sense radiating from their comments. It’s really a compelling case to be a Christian. I can’t run away from God. I want to be just like these guys. Count me in. I was blind, but now I see. The Christians Gregory had seen online were mercilessly attacking each other over whether or not men should be allowed to wear hats in church. Scripture is clear on this subject. You clearly have never read a Bible in your life.” commented one man. I have freedom in Christ. That discussion in the Bible was for specific people in a specific period. You’re being super legalistic here, bro, replied another man. In all, the men posted 347 comments and replies to each other over the course of three hours, ignoring their other life responsibilities and sealing the deal for Ethan Gregory to surrender his heart to Jesus. It was an awesome, awe-inspiring display, Gregory said tearfully. I’ve never seen the principles of Christ’s teachings exemplified any better.

Chris:
Oh, I gotta tell you something. This is so good that I think this could be used in a message.

Jeff:
Oh, I think we should do it.

Chris:
I really do.

Jeff:
We should do it like a news show.

Chris:
I’m actually copying and pasting this right now, and I’m sending it to myself to archive because it is really truly that good.

Jeff:
We should do it like a video skit, like a newsroom. That’s so good breaking this just in it’s so good.

Chris:
I think that the It’s it’s one of these things where I do you remember saying I’m second I’m coming that was already sent to you I I know, but I’m copying and pasting it for a different purpose. I’m never going to remember this. So I’m going to send it to myself and say, file for archive.

Jeff:
Okay. You like that one?

Chris:
Yeah, that’s a good one.

Jeff:
That was a good one. Thank you, Desiree. You just changed Chris’ life. Have you ever seen?

Chris:
He’s repenting of talking so many people online. Just like Christianity, it’s not effective either with politics, right? And I remember seeing a meme one time of this massive empty warehouse, just massive, and it said, here’s the number of people that have been changed by your political posts, right? They’ve changed their minds or whatever. And so it’s so funny because it’s obviously zero, right?

Jeff:
Well, I think debate has its place and that there are people who are reasonable people first. It’s what they do is they think first. They don’t go with emotion first. I think meaningful debate within the rules of and the systems of you know, open dialogue and conversation, exchange of ideas. I do think that that’s a valid thing because we know Paul in Athens, he shows up with debaters. He engages there at the Areopagus in Athens with these Greek thinkers and philosophers, which is very different than the way he dealt with, you know, some of the other contexts that he was in. So I think there’s value in it. We need apologists and that kind of thing. But what happens on social media is people who aren’t skilled or people just have opinions and are speaking from emotion, type it in all caps. I don’t think he’s ever led anybody to Jesus. No, no, for sure. Yeah. Okay, man.

Chris:
So we are going to talk about Matthew 21. And by the way, this is only found in Matthew and really it’s only a few verses. And, and wow, it’s the Jesus tells the parable of the two sons.

Jeff:
Yeah, we should have gone longer on that last segment.

Chris:
It’s only five verses. Do you want to know something else about Paul?

Jeff:
Or debate? Let me tell you another thing that makes me mad on the internet.

Chris:
Hey, this is going to be great.

Jeff:
Yeah, I’m joking. Okay, here we go. Matthew 21 verse 28 says, But what do you think about this? A man with two sons told the older boy, Son, go out and work in the vineyard today. The son answered, No, I won’t go. But later he changed his mind and went anyway. Then the father told the other son, You go on. And he said, Yes, sir, I will. But he didn’t go. Which of the two obeyed his father? They replied, The first. Then Jesus explained this meaning, I tell you the truth, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you do. For John the Baptist came and showed you the right way to live, but you didn’t believe him. While tax collectors and prostitutes did. And even when you saw this happening, you refused to believe him and repent of your sins.

Chris:
Okay. This is, this is so unbelievably heavy. Yeah.

Jeff:
Yeah. And so, thank goodness it’s only five verses.

Chris:
Yeah, right, right. You know, it’s, it is a, I can’t even imagine being a Pharisee or religious leader, a Sadducee, and eventually, you know, Jesus is now at the end of his ministry, and he’s able to boldly look at them and say, you know, for all those things that you think I’m horrible, you know, they thought he was scandalous for even spending time or associating with tax collectors or prostitutes and notorious sinners, right? That’s what the Bible says, notorious sinners. And then Jesus literally looks at them and says, not only do I think they’re valuable enough to spend time with, but they’re going to get to heaven easier than you will.

Jeff:
Yeah, it’s going to be easier for them. Yeah.

Chris:
Yeah. Which is an unbelievable, it’s like the ultimate insult for somebody who has spent their entire life, uh, saying my life is devoted to God. Right. And, and they’re the ones that say those people are unclean, uh, you know, ceremonially, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s customary for us not even to spend time with them because it would make me unclean. And he says, not only are they valuable, they’re going to get to heaven before you do. Yeah, it’s pretty amazing. And by the way, which means this, that God’s chain of command doesn’t go by title. It goes by faith, right? God’s chain of command. And by the way, that was shown in the Old Testament. Do you remember Eli and Samuel in the temple? where God shows up and says, Samuel, Samuel, and he goes to Eli, and Eli has no clue who’s been a high priest for most of his life, right? And he’s an old man at this point, and yet here he is in the temple, or excuse me, in the tabernacle, right? And yet God’s chain of command in that sense, didn’t go by title, it went by faith because Eli was far from God at that point.

Jeff:
Yeah, he was moving past Eli. So he had spoken through Eli and worked through Eli in the past. But then Eli refused to correct his sons who were living in a wicked way and manipulating the religious system for their own lusts essentially. And so God went, hey, I gave you a chance, you didn’t. So he moved past him. Yeah, so there is something to be said about, you know, God does have titles for different roles, but what we don’t want to do is get caught up in the titles and the pageantry of some kind of position and instead understand it’s a role that God gives to people. And Jesus says that all the roles of leadership in the Christ followers world are servant leadership. So yes, the role is important, but it’s the title and the pageantry and all that kind of stuff that Jesus tends to reject. Or in this case, the, you know, so the son, the father, right, a man, a man has two sons. So the father, who would the father be in the story? God. God, the Father. He goes to the older son, who would be, in this case, those religious leaders. They’ve been following God the longest, in their minds. They’ve been claiming to follow God the longest.

Chris:
In other words, they’re saying one thing and doing another.

Jeff:
Right. Or, no, no, no, this would be the pagans. The oldest one would be the pagans, the ones that weren’t following God.

Chris:
Right.

Jeff:
Right, sinners.

Chris:
Oh, because they said, I won’t go, but then they went. That’s right. And then the second, the second sign would be those that are religious. I made the same mistake you did.

Jeff:
I was looking at the verse. Well, so there’s other translations that flip this too. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. So there’s a little note at the bottom down there. Other manuscripts have it flipped. It says right there in the. in the note. So yeah, I think I’ve read it because we, you and I both began our ministry from King James, right?

Chris:
Correct.

Jeff:
So I think that’s the, our instinct is to remember it the other way. But in this case, anyways, the, um, the sinners would be the older son. God comes and says, Hey, I want you to go, you know, serve me, do my, do my will. And they go, no, we’re not going to do it. But then eventually they realized they need Jesus. Right. Right. And so then they, they go and they follow Christ. Whereas the other ones, the religious ones, they were making a claim to follow God. Right. They just weren’t actually doing it. Right. And, and so which one, he says, which one really obeyed the father? And they said, well, the one that at first said no, but then went and did what he said.

Chris:
Yeah. And by the way, there’s two great sermons in there. Each son represents a great sermon. So the religious leaders, for instance, the idea that we would say one thing and then not do it is like the Christian who talks the game and doesn’t live the life. And it’s also a person who, you know, misrepresents themselves for really bad reasons, right? Like a false prophet or somebody who starts a ministry for financial gain or something like this, right? Saying one thing, misrepresenting God. And then also, it also reminds me of, you know, the book of James where it says, hey, let your yes be yes and let your no be no. You know, out of the same fountain come both bitter waters and sweet…” That doesn’t happen. He says, so don’t say one thing and do another. And so they’re saying on the outside, absolutely I will. And they’re saying it in front of everybody, and in this case to God the Father.

Jeff:
And it’s just giving lip service.

Chris:
Yeah, giving lip service, but they don’t do what they’re saying. And so there’s a lot of sermons represented by that son. And then at the same time, there’s a lot of sermons represented by the sinner who rejects God on the surface, who’s angry with God, who doesn’t believe in God, who’s a skeptic, who decides to live, maybe they’re open to God, but they decide to live their lives their own way. But eventually they get to the point to where they recognize their need for the Savior.

Jeff:
Yeah. You know, one of my favorite phrases is verse 29, the son answered, no, I won’t go. but later he changed his mind and went anyway. I love that because it’s possible to have started off in the wrong direction and then later change your mind. That’s repentance. That’s literally the definition of repentance is to change your mind. You were going your way and now you change your mind and you go God’s way. And this is exactly the concept there. You know, Jesus said, we read yesterday, I think, where he was going around and he was preaching the good news, remember, and the kingdom of God. And when Jesus began preaching the good news, he said, the good news is this, the kingdom of God is here. Repent of your sins and turn to God. That was it. So you want to know what the core message of Jesus’ ministry was, is repent of your sins and turn to God. And so here, that’s exactly what happened. This guy was rebelling against God. And you might have all kinds of baggage in your life where, you know, you’re man alive. The first half of my life was not the best half, right? I was running buck wild and all those kinds of things. And I have a lot of regrets. And now I’ve changed my mind. That is one of the indications that God’s really doing something special in your life is that when you look back there, you go, man, I’ve changed my mind on that and I’m going God’s way instead, right?

Chris:
Like the man in the Babylon Bee who said, I once was lost but now I’m found.

Jeff:
But it doesn’t matter how long it’s been or how far you’ve gone. Later on, that’s what it says, later on he changed his mind. And so as long as you’re still breathing breath, there’s an opportunity to repent and turn to God.

Chris:
Hey, I want to bring up a topic that has to do with, earlier on we had said that God’s command of faith doesn’t necessarily go by title, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. And so there’s two flip sides of the coin. On one flip side of the coin, titles of somebody who’s a pastor or a priest or a rabbi or whatever it is. You know, there’s an authority and a responsibility that comes with those kinds of things, right? And so let me talk about that for a minute. Because there’s a negative flip side of that coin, too, where I believe that if truly people listen around the world, this would be a new thought for them. One of the benefits that I learned from some mentors in my life is that I believe that Titles, inadvertently, and, you know, not meaning to, inadvertently, they cause a separation between, let’s just, I’m going to use the word pastor because that’s what our title is, okay? So the pastor’s up here and the people are down here, right? And so I think sometimes when we take that idea of a title, and we constantly refer to the minister in the room, and we can’t even breathe their name without saying the word, you know, pastor in front of it. You know, Pastor Jeff, Pastor Chris. You know, when we do that, there’s nothing on the surface wrong with that at all, because that’s our title, right? Agreed?

Jeff:
Correct.

Chris:
But what it does is there’s a negative effect to that, where you have to be able to communicate that we’re not up here and everybody else is down here in that environment. We’re on the same level. And I think one of the ways that we can do that is try our very best to make ourselves on the same level. So in other words, when we’re preaching, not to say, like, I just had a preaching, coaching thing. Remember you walked in the office and I was coaching somebody, one of our younger preachers? Yeah. He, when he was preaching, he goes, uh, so you better align your hearts and you better listen and make yourselves quiet and still. And I’m like, listen, I was like, uh, one of the things that I’ve learned over the years, because he’s new, as I said, say, we, we, we better let God in our, in our prayer, God, I pray that we would quiet our hearts. Right. That way it puts you on the same level because otherwise it’s, you’re up here and everybody else is down here. And he said, man, I never thought of that before. Because here’s the danger of it, and I believe this is a massive offense, huge, is that when we build our church around a personality or a person, what ends up happening is if that person leaves, then all of a sudden it’s like the church crumbles, because it was based on that pastor or that leader. And so, but if we do our best to talk about the priesthood of every believer, and how it’s not the pastor who holds the authority and does everything, and he’s the only one that can pray for people or baptize people, but that is not true at all. Because the Bible says that we as Christians believe in the priesthood of every believer, and every believer in the church has the gifts, you know, and can exercise their gifts. And then what it does is it just goes a little further into putting us on the same level and the same playing field. That way, if that leader ever leaves, the church feels empowered and equipped. And also it doesn’t rise and fall on that. And it also doesn’t, you know, the other value is it doesn’t make him untouchable. And so anyway, that’s one of the reasons why I believe that there’s a danger. So let me say one more thing and I’ll let you chime in. One, our worship pastor, our main guy that works at our church, told a story and he said he went back to his hometown this past time, and he had a conversation about this, and that was a new concept for them, right? And so I thought to myself, wow, maybe not everybody has had this conversation. So it’s pretty innocent enough for them to say, wow, that’s a new conversation for me.

Jeff:
Yeah, absolutely. I think we’ve been conditioned to think in a clergy, laity kind of mentality, right? So the Bible does say, in defense, the Bible does say, give honor to whom honor is due. The Bible says multiple times in the book of Hebrews, obey those who have spiritual authority over you. It’s not just an idea of, you know, hey, Chris is a nice guy and I’ll consider what he has to say, right? There’s spiritual authority. And the Bible says, you know, give double honor to those who teach the word. Right? So there is the honor thing that as a church person or as a Christian, it’s on me to make sure that I choose to extend honor to those who are ministering to me in my life. Where it’s wrong is Jesus talking about how the world takes their power and their authority, the worldly leaders, pagan leaders, take their authority and power and lord it over the people. So it’s wrong for you and me to expect it. And so what we try to do is not totally reinforce it, right? Because if you reinforce it, it sounds like that’s what you expect. So when people say, oftentimes people come say, Hey, what should I call you? And I’m like, call me Jeff and call me on time for dinner. Right. I always make some joke like that. You know, I don’t expect the title, but there are times where on a Sunday morning, the guests sitting in the room, I can’t expect them to think appropriately about how the kingdom is supposed to work. They’re working from their position, which is, you know, they might not even be Christians, but they know there’s pastors and there’s us, right? And so they’re operating from that position. So when I step up before I speak and I say, hi, I’m Jeff, I’m one of the pastors here, Then they go, oh, okay, I’ll listen to this pastor. But I might not listen to this yahoo next to me, but I’ll listen to this pastor. Because the title then kind of gives some, hopefully establishes, maybe there’s a little bit of expertise in the topic that’s about ready to be spoken. But you’ll notice at Heritage Church, I’ll always say, I’m one of the pastors here. I never step up and go, I’m the pastor here. I’m the senior pastor here. Because even then, what I want to do is kind of step into the group of leaders rather than be the leader. And I think that that’s important. But if people extend that courtesy, I don’t think it’s something we should reject. In the same way, you know, the other day we read Mary broke the alabaster box and gave—others thought, oh, that’s terrible, you shouldn’t do that. But for her, that was a sign of respect for Jesus. I think it’s an okay thing to show respect. It’s wrong to demand it. Yeah, it’s definitely wrong to demand it. Respect—you should demand respect. Honor. We can’t demand honor, right? That then becomes, we are choosing to create that wedge there. But the kingdom here, he’s defining the kingdom as being those that are religious and the elites sometimes have a harder time making it to God because they’re so comfortable in what they perceived was their initial obedience. the verbalization of obedience. And what he’s saying is these sinners actually, when they finally repented and changed their minds, they were the ones who actually went and obeyed God and did it. And that’s what he’s looking for. He’s looking for obedience.

Chris:
So Pastor Abdal, who we know, right? Yeah, yeah. Pastor of Hope Church. Yeah, Hope Church. And he started an Arabic ministry in Heritage Church. He said it was a big deal for him and his culture. Remember when Bob Harvey went down and served? Yes. And so Bob Harvey is our founding pastor who started Heritage Church. And he went down to help Abdal one day and said, Hey, he goes, where do you want me to serve? And would he serve like children’s ministry or something? It was something where he said, he said, just put me in a, put me in a classroom. I just want to serve. And, and Abdal said, you know, in my culture, a pastor would not have been okay with serving at such a, like a lower position. And he said, so he goes, that really humbled me because it really truly aligned me with the heart of Jesus. Right. Right. And he said, cause Jesus would have done that. Right. Jesus chose to ride in on a cult as opposed to a majestic horse. Right.

Jeff:
Yeah, if you’re going to have a strong biblical worldview with regard to the church, you have to really truly embrace the idea of the priesthood of the believers. And so if we set ourselves up as the priests above everybody else, we should function that way, but we can’t demand that honor. Instead, Jesus said, the greatest among us are those who come in and serve. And when we begin to, if we want to demonstrate anything for people, it’s not our robes and our rings and our fancy seats up on the stage and people, you know, opening the doors for us and giving us all kinds of blessings. That’s not what we should be demanding. Instead, we should be looking for opportunities to be the first ones to serve and to do, and to demonstrate for everybody else, this is what we all do.

Chris:
And by the way, that reminds me that this passage of the parable of two sons, because the older son in this passage was the one who had the rights, right? So customarily, biblically, the older son and the younger son, you better believe he chose the older boy on purpose. So the older boy in any family was scheduled to get, what, double the inheritance of a younger son? And so he was the one that was favored. He was the one that was next in line for title and authority and everything else. And Jesus chose him to be the one who assumed something. Oh, yes. He had word service, but he didn’t go and he’s the one that disobeyed. And so it’s really a great message about humility, too, because the older son, who always feels more entitled, was the one that was humbled in the story, and the Pharisees, the religious leaders, were the ones that were humbled. And so I would just say this, for those out listening on the podcast who aren’t preachers or pastors, right? But you’re a CEO maybe of a company, right? You’re the one who has, you have interns working for you, right? And so we must always be willing to humble ourselves and to serve others and to love others and to demonstrate, you know, and not be caught up in wanting to feel important. Because again, God’s kingdom works opposite because Jesus says, it shall not be so with you, right? With you, it shall be different. So, all right, well, that’s a lot of lessons in there. So that’s our time and we’ll see you next time on The Bible Guys.