Transcription

Connor
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Chris
You know, Jeff, anybody who likes the Bible and is a student of the Bible and tries really hard, I think everybody is a Bible guy.

Jeff
Oh, isn’t that nice? Or a Bible girl. So we’re going to nominate everybody to be to be honorary Bible guys and gals. No, not honorary official. Straight up, straight up, straight up.

Chris
Same degree, same qualification.

Jeff
They can just go around, tell everybody I’m a Bible guy. But the only.

Chris
Question is, is it Bible gal or is it Bible girl?

Jeff
Well, let them choose. It’s not our business.

Chris
We’re going to leave that to y’all.

Jeff
That’s up to them. That’s funny. Okay. There you.

Chris
Go. Well, hey, today our segment is given to us by Desiree. And the question is who’s most likely? So if you happen to be one of the people that actually watch, we have paddles that we’re holding up and one says Chris and the other side says Jeff. Yes. And if you’re listening, then we’ll just instinctively say it out loud as well. Okay, but you and I have not read these, right.

Jeff
So I don’t know what they.

Chris
Say. So it’s.

Jeff
Just right. You’re going to read it?

Chris
I’m just going to read it. Okay. Okay, here we go. First one, there’s five of them. Okay. Who’s most likely to lock themselves out of their own home?

Jeff
Well, I’ve done it a bunch of times.

Chris
Okay, I definitely say you. You know why? Why? My home doesn’t have a key. Oh, it has a code.

Jeff
Oh. That’s why.

Chris
Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. So I haven’t used a key for my home in 18 years. Wow. I don’t even know where my house key is.

Jeff
Wow. Yeah. That’s impressive. Yeah. Okay, so. So we only have a key for the back door.

Chris
Okay. So you have a code in the front too? No. Oh, you do the garage door.

Jeff
We just lost the front door code or front door key. And I never changed out the two locks. So we have to lock the front door first and go out the back door. What I know. I just never changed a lot.

Chris
Do you guys park in the garage?

Jeff
No. Our garage is separate from the house. Yeah. So we park in the driveway. You’re parked in the driveway.

Chris
Is your garage recessed behind your house? Okay, so. So the back door is pretty accessible. Yeah, yeah. It’s not like you have to park and then walk all the way around the house. You sort of park toward the back door anyway. That’s correct. Okay, well, at least there’s that. So not a strong motivation to get the front key.

Jeff
Sure. I just never think about it. And we never think about it either. Gotcha.

Chris
All right. Number two, who’s most likely to miss their flight because they packed at the last minute? Yeah, that would definitely be me.

Jeff
That’s you. You’re the last one.

Chris
Although, I got to say this, I’m not sure I’ve ever missed a flight.

Jeff
I’ve never missed a flight either.

Chris
Yeah, and I’ve flown quite a bit.

Jeff
Me too.

Chris
You’ve flown more than me. Yeah, but I’ve flown quite a bit.

Jeff
I have a flight tomorrow after. So we’re in studio today and tomorrow. Yeah, and I have to leave right after tomorrow’s podcast for a flight. And I’m not packed yet, so. Okay. There’s that. Well, that’s. It’s only an okay tomorrow, so it’s not a big deal, you know, like that.

Chris
But, you know, an hour before you’re good, just start packing an hour before.

Jeff
Yeah. But when I arrive back home. So I leave Thursday afternoon. When I arrive back home Friday afternoon, I have two hours. I have to go to a black tie event down in Detroit. So I got to get ready for that too, right? Got to get my suit right and everything pressed and ready to go.

Chris
Well, aren’t you fancy?

Jeff
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I feel super fancy.

Chris
All right, well, number three.

Jeff
I’m so fancy.

Chris
You are. You’re the fanciest. All right. Number three, who’s most likely to be mistaken for a celebrity? You. I’d say me, but. But I’m a far cry from that. Yeah.

Jeff
What celebrity?

Chris
Oh. Who knows?

Jeff
Yeah, but you’re just a celebrity on your own. Your own. Right? I mean, you’ve got such a distinctive.

Chris
I’m not sure that I’ve ever been mistaken. Oh, I have, I have been mistaken for a celebrity. Oh, really? Okay, so, you know, mojo in the morning? Uh huh, I think I think it’s him. Okay. Right. He sort of looks like me. Okay. And or I sort of look like him. Yeah. Yeah, right. Because he’s the celebrity.

Jeff
He looks like you and.

Chris
And I actually have had somebody say. Aren’t you that guy on the radio?

Jeff
Oh, wow.

Chris
Yeah, yeah. And I said, what are you talking about? There you go. And then they pulled it up and they said, oh, you sort of look like that guy.

Jeff
He’s got a face for radio.

Chris
Yeah, yeah.

Jeff
Yeah.

Chris
That’s funny. So okay, number four.

Jeff
Number four.

Chris
Um, who’s most likely to host a reality show? You. I’m going to say absolutely you. I’m going to say me. Yep. Number one I like reality shows. Number two, I’m familiar with a lot of them. Yeah, yeah. Are you are.

Jeff
You. I don’t watch a lot of reality shows except like adventure stuff.

Chris
Yeah. Yeah. Like like survivor or. Yeah. Great. Amazing.

Jeff
So formula.

Chris
The amazing Race.

Jeff
Yeah. Like Amazing Race a lot.

Chris
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Jeff
Like I like that show. I watch a lot of like Josh gates stuff. Yeah, yeah, stuff like that.

Chris
Like naked and Afraid.

Jeff
No, I don’t like that one.

Chris
Because they’re naked.

Jeff
Well no, it’s so scripted too.

Chris
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So then finally.

Jeff
Formulaic. Let me say it that way.

Chris
I say I say formulaic. So you’re so fancy. Yeah. And then here’s the last one. Okay, okay. Who’s most likely to clap when their plane lands? You. That’s me. That’s me all day long.

Jeff
Yeah. Do you meet everybody in the clapping?

Chris
Oh, dude, I’ll clap sometimes. I’ll clap after a movie.

Jeff
Do you clap.

Chris
After? And then people will join me. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. If it’s a family movie.

Jeff
You’re just a clapping guy.

Chris
And it has like, a really strong ending. I’ll clap. Oh, good. Yeah, I really do.

Jeff
Good for you, buddy.

Chris
Good for you.

Jeff
Good for you. That is. Yeah. So you’re kind of the winner out of the who’s most likely today.

Chris
Well.

Jeff
I think.

Chris
It sort of depends on the things that.

Jeff
Myself out of the house. And then you went three for or you went four for four after that.

Chris
Hey. But it really sort of all depends on the people who create the questions, doesn’t it? It does. Right? It does. So like what she’s doing is she’s sort of like, you know, like I’m the guy who’s late. Yeah, right. I’m the guy who I’m the guy who claps.

Jeff
Yeah, right.

Chris
I’m the guy who probably missed the plane. Yeah.

Jeff
Only only if you think that those things are negative. Right. So what, hosting a TV, a reality TV show. Well, that’s when the plane lands. Yeah, those are good things.

Chris
Yeah, those are good things. But missing the plane and being late, right. Well, yeah. So that. Yeah, there. Is that okay. Good and bad. Yeah. We take them all. Yes.

Jeff
Okay. Well that was incredibly riveting. People. Both of our fans are still paying attention.

Chris
Amazed. Yeah. Both of our fans.

Jeff
It was it was really high at the beginning. And then now we’re down to like two people that are still with us, but well thank you. Thanks, mom.

Chris
If you want to, if you want to. Thanks, mom. If you want to tune in, we’re going to jump right into Matthew 18, verse number 21 talking about Jesus. Wait, wait, where are we at? No, um, I don’t know where I’m at. I’m forgiving the unforgivable debtor. Yeah.

Jeff
Unforgiving parable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The parable. So this is one of the really amazing stories Jesus tells, and it’s kind of a long one. A lot. A lot of his stories are short.

Chris
But also very specific.

Jeff
Oh, he’s going after it here on this one. So yeah, this should be a challenge to every Christian today. So Matthew 1821 through 35. Then Peter came to him and asked, Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times. Nope, not seven times, Jesus replied, but 70 times seven. He didn’t say nope. It said no, but I think I said nope. Is that he said no?

Chris
We’re reading the message version today.

Jeff
No, not seven times, Jesus replied, but 70 times seven. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accountants up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. In the process, one of his debtors was brought in, who owed him millions of dollars he couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned to pay the debt. But the man fell down before his master and begged him, please be patient with me and I’ll pay it all. Then his master filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt. But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment. His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. Be patient with me and I’ll repay it, he pleaded. But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full. When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. Then the king called in the man who had been forgiven and said, you evil servant, I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you? Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt. That’s what my Heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.

Chris
And there’s the there’s the operative word there. That’s what my Heavenly Father operative phrase will do to you if you refuse to give your brothers. Like, what does that mean?

Jeff
I kind of like Jesus other stories a little better. That’s hard core right there.

Chris
Yeah. So do you want to try to tackle what does that mean by that’s what he’ll do?

Jeff
Well what do you think it means.

Chris
Well, I prefer to default. Defer to what did I say.

Jeff
You said default.

Chris
I prefer to defer. How about that? I prefer.

Jeff
To defer.

Chris
To the notation here. There you go.

Jeff
That’s what I was going to do the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, that’s the benefit of having a good study Bible.

Chris
Yes. It says.

Jeff
Great notes there.

Chris
Because God has forgiven all our sins. We should not withhold forgiveness from others as we realize how completely Christ has forgiven us. It should produce an attitude toward forgiveness toward others. But we don’t forgive others. We are settling ourselves over Christ’s law. We are setting ourselves above Christ law in love. But it still doesn’t explain, does it? It actually has a notation on that verse. Yeah, but that’s what my Heavenly Father.

Jeff
When we decide not to forgive others, we’re removing ourselves from Jesus law of love, and we’re setting ourselves above it. Now, all of a sudden, now we suffer the consequences of it, right? That’s kind of what it’s saying there.

Chris
But and all of that. But like, so think about it. So the man postured himself correctly at the beginning, beginning hit a broken and contrite heart, and then all of a sudden he’s on the receiving end of God’s mercy, care, blessings. Right? And then then the man turns right around and displays a wicked heart, you know, unforgiving, hardened, without compassion, without mercy. And now what does he receive from the Heavenly Father? He stops receiving blessings, right? Right. In fact, he goes toward toward hardships. By the way, that is very consistent with what happens in our lives sometimes the book of Romans says, right, that that God will pursue us, and sometimes he pursues us. And and, you know, he turns us over to a reprobate mind in some cases, in some cases, he’ll, you know, allow things in our lives. And I’ve always said this, there’s only sort of three things, three major categories of things that turns our heart toward God, which is number one conviction. That’s the majority of it, right? That’s the majority of all the categories. God gets our attention through the power of the Holy Spirit that convicts our hearts and then the second one, God forbid, is misery. And then the third one is tragedy. Yeah. Right. So so when when we’re outside of God’s care and outside of his blessings and, and, you know, we’re not we’re not on the receiving end of the abundant life because of our posture. I think that I think that’s consistent with that. Yeah.

Jeff
So when we realize we did a message a while back, I think you suggested a lot of it to me. But when I was in Florida, I was speaking at a thing and used the phrase, we’re all just beggars trying to show other beggars where there’s bread, right, right. And if we can have that posture, then we realize we’ve been forgiven. And so why wouldn’t we forgive others? Right. And that’s, that’s the issue. So in this instance I would say this guy did not repent, right? There’s no repentance. The heart was not I’ve done wrong and I promise to fix it. The issue was I’m about to be sold into slavery and I don’t want to be right, right.

Chris
So the indication is a performance.

Jeff
Yeah. His heart was not changed in this moment. He was he was not repentant. And the way that you can tell that is because of what he does when he leaves, right? Right. He didn’t experience forgiveness because he didn’t really repent. Right? So because he never repented, he didn’t really experience real forgiveness. Even though the king gave him forgiveness, he didn’t experience it because he didn’t experience it. He couldn’t forgive the other guy, right? He didn’t know what it meant to be forgiven.

Chris
Because because he he probably thought the only reason why he was given a zero balance was because of his cunningness.

Jeff
He was so clever.

Chris
He was so clever.

Jeff
He found the right words. He pushed the right buttons, he manipulated. And I got a tear flowing down my cheek and convinced this it was.

Chris
It was a thing of beauty.

Jeff
That king’s a sucker, right? Right.

Chris
So? So, yeah. Because somebody on the receiving end of absolute, you know, when they come to the end of themselves and they and they fall down, you know, and repent. And then all of a sudden they get forgiven. They walk away in gratitude. Yeah, right. Which is exactly what, you know, this is, this is telling us here. So I’ve always said a few things when teaching this passage. The first one is, is, you know, if you live in Christian world, there are people, some people who use forgiveness and grace synonymously. But those are two very different words. Right? So forgiveness is actually defined, according to Webster, as releasing a debt right, of somebody releasing a debt. That’s what forgiveness is. So in other words that’s we have language to substantiate this. We say like, you owe me an apology, right? You owe me an explanation because there’s a deficit, right? There’s there’s a debt debtor relationship that happens when there’s an offense. Yeah. And so forgiveness is the action of saying, you don’t owe me anything anymore. In fact, I’m okay if you never apologize again. Right? Or if you if you never repay me again. If you never. Do anything again. That’s it’s a releasing of a debt. But grace is defined as the unmerited favor of God, right? Those are two different things. In other words, for grace is to say, I’m going to view you and treat you just as if you’ve never sinned. Right. So God gives us, you know, mercy and grace. Mercy is is he spares us from what we deserve. And grace means he gives us what we don’t deserve. Right. So so anyway, all that to say this, we are never commanded to give others grace. We’re never commanded to give others reconciliation and say that I should say we’re never commanded to give others reconciliation. Chris
If you’re in an unhealthy relationship, I think it is completely biblical to say, I forgive you. I just don’t want anything more to do with you. Right. So so, you know, if you’re in an abusive relationship, I can forgive you. But still avoid you and say it’s unhealthy for us to be in a relationship. Not every relationship has to be reconciled, right? Right right right. But but every relationship actually does require forgiveness. Yeah, that’s the bad news for the Christian.

Jeff
Yeah. Corinthians does tell us that he’s given us the ministry of reconciliation, but that’s in Christ, right? That’s reconciling people to Christ. So I just had a conversation with some people who have gone through. Something that, quite frankly, from my perspective, is unforgivable. Right. And they’ve experienced it. You know what I’m talking about. Yeah. And in that conversation, one of the people asked, how do you forgive?

Chris
And let’s just clarify a horrific, heinous crime. Yes. That would send somebody to the death sentence chair.

Jeff
Horrific. Just a horrific circumstance. Yep. And the family, godly people. And one of the questions they ask is, I know God says to forgive. How do how how do I forgive? Yeah. So in that I took them to Romans chapter 12, right where it says, don’t try to get vengeance right. Don’t get revenge. That seems to be the threshold for the Christian with regard to forgiveness is if you can get to the point where you say, okay, God. I’m going to release my perceived right to be the judge. And I’m going to let you be the judge. Then Romans says, vengeance is mine, says the Lord, I will repay. Right. The idea of being a sinner in the hands of an angry God is terrifying, right? But as a person who wants to get to the point where, you know, Jesus taught us to pray. Forgive us our debts as we forgive those. I mean, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. Another one, he says, forgive our sins as we forgive those who sin against us or our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. So he attaches us, asking for forgiveness to our willingness to forgive others, right? That’s kind of what he’s saying at the end of this passage. Here is the same thing. That’s what your father will do to you if you refuse to forgive others. So what is forgiveness? We think forgiveness a lot of times is. Okay. You get a free pass. It’s no big deal. We’re just gonna pretend like it didn’t happen somehow. I’m just going to absorb all the consequences, and you get none of the consequences, right? That’s. That’s what we think.

Chris
You don’t have to answer for anything.

Jeff
We tend to think of forgiveness that way, because in some ways, we think that’s how God forgave us, right? But. Biblical forgiveness. I think the threshold of for a Christian is you release your right to be the judge and let God be the judge. And man, there’s so much peace when you finally go, you know what? I don’t need to chase this person down. I don’t need to get revenge. God’s going to repay them? Yeah, right. And there is something about that. There’s a certain amount of peace knowing God will repay. God will do the right thing and he will bring justice on a level I cannot. I mentioned I knew of a family in Texas who had had a horrible thing happen many, many years ago, and the mother of the victim was obsessed with the death of the the perpetrator. And went to his execution. And her husband had said. She’s become a shallow who he was or who she was during his time. And his bitterness. Bitterness has eaten her life. But after the execution. So I didn’t know them during this whole thing. But I heard the story afterwards, she said. After the execution, she realized there was no satisfaction in that either. She thought during that 15 year period, if I could just get justice and watch him die. And then when she did. She got, she felt like it was revenge and it was totally hollow. And she came back and her testimony was, I wasted 15 years of my life. I was dead while I was alive because all I wanted was revenge. Yeah, right. And so for her and what she realized this passage is, God says, give it to God, and God will bring justice. And you will be able to go on with your life. Jeff
You’ll be able to live. Really live. It’s not that you’re saying it’s no big deal. Just know God will bring judgment. Right. He’s the executioner. And then you can go on with your life. And I don’t know that you’ll ever get over it, but you can certainly, with God, get through it. Yeah. And and there’s some real power in that. There’s so much freedom in that. I’ve experienced those things in my life personally. I don’t need to tell that story over and over again. I think you have as well. And this is I think, but we have to realize how much we’ve been forgiven, right? Right. I tend to think I’ve been forgiven a little. And that jerk needs lots of forgiveness, right? And if I just realize how offensive I’ve been towards God in my life every day, and that I’ve needed him to forgive me for a multitude than if I’ve been forgiven, why wouldn’t I forgive someone else? Right?

Chris
Well, Ephesians 432, right. Be kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ’s sake has forgiven you. And what he’s saying is, it’s like God only forgave you for one reason, not because of you, but because of Christ’s sake, his sacrifice. Right? Right. So, so in the same way you’ve been forgiven for Christ’s sake. In other words, like God didn’t forgive you because you deserve it. The Bible is telling me, right? Right? He he didn’t forgive you because of you. He forgave you in spite of you, right, right, right. Which which gives us permission to forgive people who who don’t deserve it at all. And we think somehow, if we forgive somebody and they don’t deserve it, most of the time when I talk to people, they say, man, if he only knew what he did, if he only would just acknowledge, right what he did and if and if he realized it, then I’d be okay with moving past forgiveness because he doesn’t even realize that he did anything wrong at all. And he sits on his throne of whatever and or he or she. And I’m thinking to myself, like, that’s where we get it all wrong. See the reason why, you know, even though reconciliation is a recommended thing, I don’t want people to mishear me. Yeah, it’s not a command, but but forgiveness is an absolute command. And every offense and every relationship. And the reason why I believe that God doesn’t let us off the hook is because we have to understand the massive truth. And this is the big truth. This is the revolutionary blow you away. I never thought of that kind of truth, which is forgiveness has very little to do with the person you’re forgiving. Chris
It has everything to do with you. Yeah, it.

Jeff
Sets you free.

Chris
It sets you free. So Lewis Meade says, I forgave to set a prisoner free, only to discover that prisoner was me. So we think somehow if we are angry at somebody, we’re punishing them and holding them in prison. But actually, when we hang on to bitterness and hatred, we are the prisoners, right? Right. And so and so the reason why Jesus says, come to me all you know in Matthew, come to me, all you who are weary and have heavy burdens, and I will give you rest, is because he wants rest for our souls, and he wants us to live a life of of love and happiness and spiritual and emotional health. And none of that can happen without forgiveness. And so the forgiveness is not for the other person, right? We don’t forgive because of them. We we forgive them in spite of them. Yes. And we forgive because it helps us. And so and so God is looking out for us when he commands us to forgive. And so yeah, I just think that and.

Jeff
And that offense is was evil against you. It was horrific against you. Right? That that thing that happened to you that you’re having a hard time forgiving is every bit as evil and more so than you believe it to be.

Chris
Yeah, right. Or against someone that you love.

Jeff
So, so from from from God’s perspective, it’s far more evil than you think of it. Right. And so if you can just understand what we’re not saying is it’s not a big deal. What we’re saying is it’s a bigger deal when God takes care of it than when you hang on to your right to take care of it. Right. And you are free. And so sometimes as Christians, when we when we only ever talk about grace, we think that God is this cuddly guy that just forgives everything, right? And we forget that he’s also angry at sin and will bring absolute and final judgment to evil. Yeah. And so if we give it over to him, well, he says.

Chris
It right here.

Jeff
Yeah, he says he will he will take care of it. And so we have to have confidence that he will. And that sets you free.

Chris
That’s great. Well that’s that’s right at our time. So that’s a big one. And I hope that if God has challenged you as you’re listening to extend someone forgiveness, that could it could mean a lot of different things. It could mean a reaching out a note. You maybe write a note to somebody who is no longer alive, even. Right? Yeah. Yeah, but but it’s a process. And just remember, God, God asks this of us because it’s for our benefit. So.

Jeff
And so when you write that note and you say, I forgive, you say I give you over to God, right? Right. That’s the act of forgiveness.

Chris
That’s right. Yeah. All right. Well, hopefully we’ll see you next time on The Bible Guys.