Transcription

Connor
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Chris
All right. Well good morning Jeff. Good morning Chris, and good morning to all of our listeners. Although some I’m sure are listening. Here we are. Right. That’s right. Yeah. Hey, I had a guess. It’s gonna be a hard hitting one today. Chris. I had a guy come up to me in the lobby of our church and say that he listens to us on the way home from work, and he said, and it was one of the best compliments. He said, so when the clock, you know, gets, gets to the point where he’s, you know, the whistle blows. And he said he said he thinks he’s more excited, not because work is ending, but because he gets to listen to another episode of the Bible.

Jeff
Wow, how cool is that?

Chris
Yeah, I thought it was a very wow. Awesome. Jeff
Well good afternoon to you.

Chris
Good afternoon.

Jeff
Yeah. That’s right. Wow.

Chris
Have you seen spirited with Will Ferrell and Ryan Reynolds?

Jeff
Yes yes yes.

Chris
Good afternoon.

Jeff
Good afternoon. And that was that’s good bad phrase. Yeah.

Chris
That’s supposed to be like a like a bad phrase. Yeah.

Jeff
Like a cut down or.

Chris
Like it was a bad burn in the 1800s.

Jeff
Good afternoon, sir. Okay, so, uh, hey, this is an important one. And I think beginning of the year, uh, we just have to get right down to the most important segments. Yeah, well, so the dad joke competitions.

Chris
It’s all about importance.

Jeff
Incredibly important. So you want to go first? Yeah.

Chris
So I have five dad jokes. I have five to read yet out loud. I’ve not read them. Period. So here’s here’s the first one. Why was the baby jalapeno shivering?

Jeff
I don’t know.

Chris
He was a little chilly.

Jeff
Okay, that’s a good start.

Chris
I liked it, I.

Jeff
Liked it, uh, I recently took the took a new job as the head of old MacDonald’s farm. Uh, I’m the CIO.

Chris
Oh, wow.

Jeff
Wow. Wow. Okay.

Chris
That’s funny. Okay, how about this one? I’ve lost a lot of weight just by wearing bread on my head. It’s a new loaf hat diet. I’m trying.

Jeff
Loaf hat.

Chris
Low fat.

Jeff
Okay. Hey, that’s appropriate for January. Yeah. Okay. So we’re gonna. That. That’ll pass. Barely. Barely pass.

Chris
I didn’t love it.

Jeff
Okay. Uh, so the teacher says. All right, boys and girls, make up a sentence that includes the words defense, defeat, and detail. And little boy says when a horse jumps over defense, defeat go first, then the tail.

Chris
That’s pretty good. That’s pretty good. There you go. I like it. All right, how about this one? I’ve adopted a pet termite and I’m calling him Clint Clint Eastwood.

Jeff
Hey. That’s appropriate. You’re a movie guy. Yeah, I.

Chris
Like it a lot.

Jeff
Clint Eastwood.

Chris
Clint, Clint Eastwood. That’s pretty good.

Jeff
Okay. How does a farmer find new cows to buy? Oh, he looks through the catalog. Oh, wow. Yeah. Hey, that just came after Christmas. Yeah. Okay. It slipped.

Chris
In. All right. Hey, uh, a sheep, a drum and a snake all fall off a cliff. Bah dum tsss.

Jeff
Oh, no. Oh, no.

Chris
I think she’ll really like that. I really Iike it. I’m gonna tell my daughter that she’ll use it.

Jeff
90% of all people still own a comb. They just can’t part with it.

Chris
Ooh. Ooh. Okay.

Jeff
All right. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris
And that’s actually that’s.

Jeff
Getting too close to home. Yeah.

Chris
Right. All right, here’s the last one. Um, okay. Oh my goodness. Goodness gracious. I had to read this before. And here we go. A Mexican magician told his audience he’d disappear. On the count of three, he began counting. Uno, dos. Poof! He disappeared without a trace.

Jeff
Okay, here’s my last one. That’s funny. Uh, I find elevator jokes to be the most uplifting, but sometimes they also bring me down. Uh, yeah, man. Mine. Mine were, uh, not as good as mine. Less than. Yeah. Other than, uh, defense detail.

Chris
Yeah. The defense detail was a good one. Yeah, yeah. You know what? Out of all the jokes, you know, we should probably start doing, we should probably rank rate them. No, no, no, not the whole thing. That takes long, but just pick the one that you like the most. So out of those ten jokes, I like the, uh, jalapeno little.

Jeff
Jalapeno is the best one.

Chris
Yep, yep, I like that one. Yeah.

Jeff
Because it had the the is the simplest.

Chris
Although I like the drum and the simplest.

Jeff
Common denominator.

Chris
I like the I like the pet termite.

Jeff
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Chris
Those were good eats wood. Yeah. Eats wood. Yeah.

Jeff
That was great. Yeah. Okay.

Chris
You know what’s interesting about this, uh, season that we’re in in this series. So we’re doing a series on the life of Jesus, 250 events of the life of Jesus. We’re going chronologically and parallel. So if it’s written in two Gospels, we’re reading both of those. But for the past several podcasts. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it’s just been in one passage.

Jeff
Yeah, yeah.

Chris
Just just Luke, Luke, Luke has recorded, you know, I’m not sure. Had I not done this series, that I would have realized that Luke probably is the winner when it comes to, uh, uh, having the most unique information.

Jeff
Yeah. Well, Matthew and Mark are very, very similar. Mark is shorter, but, uh, Mark will take two verses to say the same thing. Matthew takes ten verses to say, but they tell a lot of the same things, right? Luke picks up and covers most of what Matthew and Mark say, and then tells a whole bunch of new things. And then John is almost exclusively John. John doesn’t tell a lot of the same things. Um, uh, and so you’ll see here pretty soon, I think we’re going to pivot into mostly John for a while. Yeah, is what’s going to happen.

Chris
But it’s just interesting, isn’t it? Yeah.

Jeff
It is. So, uh, I think one thing to think about, Chris, is we just spent 4.5 minutes telling dad jokes, and that’s what that guy looks forward to when he gets out of work every day.

Chris
You think so? Yeah.

Jeff
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah. He’s sitting here going, why? Why am I so excited about this I don’t know. Anyways, it was amazing. So.

Chris
Or maybe the Bible. Maybe he likes the Bible.

Jeff
Oh yeah. Just get past this. He might he might skip past the.

Chris
Yeah. You never know.

Jeff
Yeah yeah yeah.

Chris
You never know.

Jeff
Well welcome back. If you’re just now joining us, uh, Luke 16, it’s, uh, 19 through 31. And, uh, this one’s pretty hard hitting. Yeah. For sure. Uh, Jesus tells about the rich man and the beggar, and it says this. Jesus said there was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed in purple and fine linen, and who lived each day in luxury. At his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, who was covered with sores. And as Lazarus lay there, longing for scraps from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores. Finally the poor man died, and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried in his soul, went to the place of the dead. There, in torment he saw Abraham in the far distance. With Lazarus at his side. The rich man shouted, Father Abraham, have some pity. Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames. But Abraham said to him, my son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted. Lazarus had nothing. So now he’s here being comforted and you’re in anguish. And besides, there’s a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there. Then the rich man said, please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father’s home. For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them, so they don’t end up in this place of torment. But Abraham said, Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote. Rich man replied, no, Father Abraham, but if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.

Jeff
But Abraham said, if they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.

Chris
Yeah, and that’s, by the way, that that’s the part of the story that, uh, that last sentence and, uh, and, you know, oh, if they’re not going to listen to what they wrote, they’re not going to listen. Even if somebody rises from the dead. That’s a challenging concept. Yeah. Because I would think that if Jesus appeared in person, for example, right in this podcast right here, and he appeared right in. Front of the table like as we’re recording. I would think that would change some skeptics minds. Yeah, right. Somebody who’s listening and thinks, I doubt this is true. And all of a sudden Jesus appears on, you know, like the road to Damascus. Uh, and so somebody’s raising from the dead, I would think would do the same thing. Uh, but yet he makes this statement that I’m just trying to be honest with here. He’s saying, no, no, no, even if somebody rose from the dead, uh, he’s not going to believe it, because, you know, Moses performed great miracles, right? He did miraculous things. Sure. Right. It was pretty well known.

Jeff
So if you had a sense that a ghost showed up in your room and it wouldn’t matter what the ghost said, you’d just be freaked out by it.

Chris
Mhm.

Jeff
Right. And I think that may be what he’s trying to say is that the absolute truth of God’s Word, the law and the prophets, Moses and the prophets that’s been established all along, they’ve had access to the truth all this time. So now who knows how they would respond if what they perceived was some ghost or some thing. Right. It’s at that point, I don’t know very many people who claim to see ghosts and then went. You know what I need? I need to repent of my sins and turn to God.

Chris
Except for Ebenezer Scrooge. Yeah, it was fictional, though.

Jeff
Yeah, that was fictional. Yeah. Yeah. So, hey, here’s a story where this is one of the reasons why I believe in hell is because Jesus believed in hell. Right, right. If if Jesus didn’t believe in hell, I would prefer to ignore it and to not believe in it. Yes, but I believe in it. And that it’s real. Because Jesus did, right?

Chris
Yeah. There’s there’s no there’s no there’s little doubt, uh, about the clarity of this. And so, uh, by the way, there is it’s fair to say there is some debate on whether or not, uh, this was a real story or whether this is like one of those parables, like a certain man divided his property between his sons. Right? Yeah. And so it’s like, wait, wait, wait, is he telling a real story or is he giving a metaphor? Right. And so there is debate on that. But I would say and you I think you’ll agree, most scholars would say this is a real event.

Jeff
Well, the reason being when Jesus told the story yesterday, for instance. So for our listeners yesterday, it said there was a certain rich man, right, who had a dishonest manager, right? What was the name of the rich man? What was the name of the dishonest manager? But here, whenever Jesus tells true stories, he uses names. And so you have Lazarus, as mentioned in this, in this place. Right? So it doesn’t name the rich man, but it does name Lazarus. And so that’s why a lot of scholars would say when Jesus tells true stories, he tells names when he doesn’t, then. So this could be something Jesus knew, right? He knew about this thing. Uh, it could be a summary of, uh, of what he believed or what he knew about heaven and hell and this kind of thing. Now, there’s so many elements. How is it that at this point, Abraham, it can be seen? Uh, why is it that it appears that what people would perceive as heaven is right next to hell? Uh, how does all that work? Right, right. Do you have a do you have any thoughts on that?

Chris
Um, well, I mean, that’s the part of the story, I think that leads people to believe that maybe it’s just a metaphor, right? Because because, uh, you know, we don’t, uh, not not what does the Bible say about heaven? Not the half has been told. Right, right. So it’s it’s, you know, the idea that somebody who is in the place of torment can physically see, right? You know, like, uh, in call out to and communicate to somebody who’s in heaven, uh, doesn’t seem like that’s anywhere else in the Bible. Yeah. Uh, you know, and and it also seems like we believe heaven is above because Jesus ascended into heaven, right? So, so in this idea that like hell is below. So all our lives, whether you’ve seen cartoons or whatever it is, you know, uh, you know, or movies with Patrick Swayze, right? Everybody, everybody who’s, you know, who goes to the Bad Place goes below, and everybody who goes to the Good Place goes above and and so and there’s an indication there to where he’s looking up, right. To Father Abraham. And by the way, uh, the rich man, he’s not named, uh, this is Father Abraham. This is the Abraham of the Old Testament, right? Right. Because the rich man went into Abraham’s bosom and, you know, he’s carried by the angels to be with Abraham.

Jeff
Lazarus did. Not. The rich man.

Chris
Oh, my bad, my bad. Yeah. The rich man was in the place of torment, right. That my bad. Sorry. Right. And but but his name. But the rich man’s name is not given, right?

Jeff
So, so traditionally, for several thousand years, uh, Christians would view this as. Remember when Jesus is explaining heaven. This this is not claiming heaven here. This is the place of the dead.

Jeff
But Jesus says, behold, I go to prepare a place for you. That’s a new place, right? Heaven after the resurrection.

Chris
New heaven and new earth. Right?

Jeff
Right. So? So he was going to prepare a new place for you. And that’s going to be post-resurrection. So prior to the resurrection, uh, traditional Christianity would say that the place of the dead contained both Paradise and hell, right? And that there was a chasm as as Abraham says, between where the people in hell could not get to the, the, the Paradise place. So now, uh, after the resurrection, now, uh, hell expands and the Bible mentions that at a point where hell continues to expand and that then the place of Paradise then becomes heaven for us. So it’s a new place. Where this was at was during Jesus lifetime, the new heaven had not been made yet. Does that make sense? And so in this case, then the place of the dead was both both a place of torment and a place of Paradise just divided between the two. And then he cleaned that out. That is. Do you remember in one of the creeds where it talks about Jesus went and took captivity captive? Remember, remember in one of the creeds that mentions that, um, the idea being during those three days that he was in, uh, in the resurrection, again, traditionally, uh, much of the ancient church believed that what Jesus did was went and cleaned out Paradise that left this empty place and took them to heaven. Right? That that’s how people would that’s how many theologians have believed happened. And so, uh, Jesus is not describing heaven, but he is describing hell here. And then all those people over on the other side went, now it appears for a moment that. Does that make sense? Have you heard those things before, that there was a separation between Paradise and. But Paradise was not heaven.

Chris
Uh, to be honest, uh, I don’t I think I have, but I’m not sure. I think you explained it better. Okay. So the idea that the idea that heaven and hell, uh, were modified after the resurrection. I’ve heard that concept before. Yeah, well, heaven.

Jeff
Became heaven became a new.

Chris
Place, right? A new.

Jeff
Place. They weren’t in heaven. They were in Paradise.

Chris
Right? Right, right right, right right, right. Yeah.

Chris
Right. So the reality of where the good people went that that that changed.

Jeff
That changed after the resurrection.

Chris
Yeah. So that’s that’s a very interesting thought. But again, that lines up that explanation lines up with everything that I know to be consistent about Jesus talking about those things.

Jeff
So then he says, um, hey, uh, Father Abraham, have some pity. Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue. I’m in anguish in these flames. That’s pretty horrific.

Chris
Yep, that’s not good.

Jeff
But Abraham says, son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted and Lazarus had nothing. Now he’s here being comforted and you’re in anguish. It almost sounds like what he’s saying is, because you’re rich, you’re in hell. And because Lazarus was poor and now he’s in heaven, right?

Chris
But that’s not it. That’s not it. So. So let me read the notes and the new, uh, or, you know, the Life Application Study Bible. It says the Pharisees considered wealth to be a proof of a person’s righteousness. Jesus startled them by telling them this story, in which a diseased beggar is rewarded and the rich man is punished. The rich man did not go to hell because of his wealth, but because he was selfish, refusing to feed Lazarus. Uh, take take him in or care or feed him. The rich man was hard hearted in spite of his great blessings. The amount of money we have is not as important as the way we use it. So what is your attitude toward your money and possessions? Do you hoard them selfishly or do you use them to help others?

Jeff
Yeah. So I think I’m going to disagree with that. Yeah. With with that, uh, note, he was not in hell because he was selfish.

Chris
Mhm.

Jeff
Because he knows why he’s in hell. Right. In verse 30 it says, the rich man replied, no, father Ahab, Abraham. But if someone is sent from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God. Right? He knew why he was in hell. He never repented of his sins and never turned to God, right? Right. So, so that nobody goes to hell because they’re selfish.

Chris
It could be that that’s what they were implying without saying it.

Jeff
Yeah, it that’s that’s a dangerous thing to leave that note. Yeah. The way it was I agree, I would say I agree. So I love the notes here. But I would say that it, it wasn’t final. Everybody that goes to heaven. Yep. Only everybody in heaven goes exactly the same way. They repented of their sins. They turn to God through the grace that Jesus extends, because he paid the price on the cross and the power of his resurrection. So everybody goes to heaven exactly the same way. Nobody goes to heaven because they were unselfish, right? Nobody goes to heaven because they did good deeds. We all are sinners in the need, in need of a Savior. And then everybody that will go to hell. All goes to hell exactly the same way. It’s not because of any specific sin. It’s not because they were selfish. It was not because they were murderers. It’s not because they did bad things. It’s not because they were, you know, whatever adulterers, they go to hell because they did not repent of their sins. It did not turn to God.

Chris
Yeah, right. Well, but this is before Jesus died on the cross and raised Rose again. Right. So how did they get to heaven before Jesus died on the cross?

Jeff
To Jesus.

Chris
Right, right. But how did that play out? They had to do sacrifices, right? Yeah.

Jeff
So? So, yeah. Uh, so the sacrifices were for the purpose of looking to the Messiah. The promised one. Sure. But there’s multiple times when God says, I wish you’d quit doing your sacrifices, because what I want is a broken and contrite heart. Sure. So. So God was looking for the heart, looking to the Messiah. The way we outwardly demonstrated that was through the sacrifices. Right. Um, but then the big question would be, was it my individual sacrifices, or was it the one big sacrifice a year for the entire nation by the high priest? Right. So it depends on how you believe the sacrifices broke down. But there’s multiple times when God tells the individual people, I wish you’d quit sacrificing. I don’t want more blood. I don’t want more goats. I don’t want more bulls. What I want is a broken and contrite heart. Right? Um. What does God require of you? Oh, man. But that you live justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God? I mean, how many times does he say those kinds of phrases? So what happened was the Jews made the religious ritual the way you get to heaven, right? And what God wanted was the heart all along, right?

Chris
Yeah. Well, it sacrifices the heart of that scripture is the sacrifices are meaningless without the heart.

Jeff
That’s right, that’s right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeff
So you didn’t get to heaven because of sacrifices. You got to, you know, you came to God because of your heart, and your heart was a heart of obedience and desire to honor God. You turned from your sins. That’s the purpose behind the sacrifice. And you turn to God by obeying him. And now we repent of our sins by confessing them to God and saying, God, I agree with you, my my way is wrong and his grace rather than sacrifice, because Jesus is the final sacrifice. Now, prior to Christ, you looked forward to Christ through the sacrifices. After Christ, you look back to Christ, right? And that’s why the book of Hebrews says, man, we can see so, so much clearer than they did. Right? Right. Because we get we have the benefit of the fulfilled work of the cross, whereas they were looking to the promised work of the cross. Yeah. So, so I think, you know, as we come into this New Year’s, we’re beginning the new year. And I mean, we start off with heaven and hell here. It’s a pretty big one. I think we we have to understand Jesus really believed in hell.

Chris
Yeah.

Jeff
And that’s why he came. As a matter of fact, later on in Johnny Tells us, he came to seek and to save that which was lost. That’s why he came. All the other things he did are good. He taught us good things. He healed sick people. He did so many wonderful things. But he came on a mission to seek and to save that which was lost. And so as we look at what should our mission be this year, um, if we really believed hell was as real as Jesus did, we would do everything we could do to bring our lost friends and family to Christ this year too.

Chris
For sure. For sure. You know it’s almost as if what you’re saying is the gift of Jesus was wrapped in a rescue mission.

Jeff
There you go. That’s exactly right. Uh, harkening back to, I don’t know, a very wise man a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Doing our Christmas.

Chris
Series. Well, hey, that’s a that’s a great place to end. And that’s our time. So we will see you next time on The Bible Guys.