Transcription

Connor:
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Chris:
Good morning.

Jeff:
Chris, I have a big one for you today. Oh, big one. Yep. Let me find it here because I just closed it out.

Chris:
Yeah.

Jeff:
You are going to challenge me. Yes. At the things you’re good at, two truths and a lie. So does that mean a third of the things you say aren’t true?

Chris:
Why are you adding to this? That’s not what it says. I don’t know.

Jeff:
It just says that you’re going to share two truths and a lie about experiences that happened to you on stage.

Chris:
Why does that mean that I’m good at something like lying?

Jeff:
I don’t know. She gave it to you. She didn’t give it to me.

Chris:
That’s what I was wondering. It goes back and forth, Jeff. Listen to your own podcast, buddy. Uh, okay. So this specifically says, uh, experiences that happened to me on stage, Jeff, I have to figure out which one’s the lie.

Jeff:
So how many times have you been on stage? Do you think?

Chris:
Oh my goodness. You being serious? Yeah. I don’t know. 31 more than 30 years, 40 years of being on stage. Um, but you’re talking about like every single event, like, you know, there’s only four Sundays in a month. But then you’re talking about events and weekends and youth events.

Jeff:
And I mean, you know, there’s been at least 2,080 weekends of us being serving the Lord.

Chris:
That’s only 31 years?

Jeff:
No, that’s 40.

Chris:
That’s 40 years. Okay. So yeah, I probably say 3,000, maybe. You think so?

Jeff:
Me too. I think so. About 3,000. I was trying to think that the other day. I bet it’s three or 4,000 times I’ve been on stage.

Chris:
Yeah. That’s pretty wild to think about that. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Okay.

Jeff:
So out of all those, give me two things. That’s why I asked that. Give me two truths and a lie of you being on stage.

Chris:
Okay. Here’s the first one. The first one is, I did a message on a Sunday morning in a Baptist church. And for the first 10 or 15 minutes of the whole message, I had Nicodemus in the sycamore tree. And instead of Zacchaeus. And then apparently when I got to the scripture, I just picked right up with the name Zacchaeus, never realizing I had said Nicodemus over 20 times and didn’t believe the person who told me afterwards until we used to record him on cassette. I went back and listened to myself and I counted and it was over 20, like 22 times I said the word Nicodemus. before I got, and never even realized it. And nobody corrected you. That’s the first one. Yeah. You have no friends in that room. That could be correct. That could be a truth or a lie. Here’s the second one. I spoke at a non-denominational church that I worked at for about three and a half years. And I had a special effect with smoke machines, like fog machines. And it set off the fire alarm. during the message as I was supposed to be creating a very dramatic moment with music. So music and light and smoke at the same time. And it was supposed to be representing the Holy of Holies. Oh, okay. And then somehow the alarm goes off and the alarm wasn’t just like a beep, beep, beep. It was, have you ever been a part of an alarm where you feel like your ears are bleeding? Yes. Right. It’s like, you can’t even like, you know, like stand it. That alarm went off and nobody left because they all knew why. It wasn’t a real fire. They knew it was just because of the smoke, the haze or whatever. And it went off for over a solid like minute and a half, two minutes. Can’t remember. But it was just excruciating until somebody was able to shut it off. That happened in a service on a Sunday morning with about 1,500 people in the room. Here’s the third one. The third one is I was speaking at a youth event in Colorado Denver, Colorado, and I’ve got really skinny Legs and so I was wearing shorts No, no, I was wearing pants. I was wearing pants and my buddy come up to me and said hey, it’s in the summer Why are you wearing pants? You should wear shorts and I said well to be honest with you I said I just always wear pants when I speak and he goes yeah, but it’s a million degrees where everybody was sitting below me sitting on the on the floor crisscross applesauce and And I was on a stool on an elevated platform. And he said, just change in shorts, dude. But I’ve got these really skinny, like, you know, legs. They’re super hairy. I’m Italian, all this kind of things. So I’m like, fine, whatever. So I go change into some cargo shorts. I come back down, I do a sound check on the stage. And while I’m doing the sound check, my buddy who flew me to Denver comes walking down and comes up to me and goes, um, yeah, put, put the pants back on before the service starts. That’s what he said.

Jeff:
Oh no.

Chris:
Okay. So those are three stage experiences. Which one is the lie?

Jeff:
I don’t know. They’re all good stories. They’re all good stories. So I’m going to say the first one is a truth.

Chris:
That is the lie.

Jeff:
That was the lie?

Chris:
Yeah. Cause I know what you’re thinking. You’re thinking, how can Hayes set off a fire alarm?

Jeff:
No, no, no, no. The second one was the Hayes. Thank you. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

Chris:
Um, so, uh, no, when I was actually speaking, uh, in community Bible church, I had created the baptistry, you know, there’s like a little hole in the wall. I had put a curtain, like the veil was torn too. It was this big, long baptistry thing. And I had created these, uh, burgundy drapes. And then at the very end, when, when God flooded out, which by the way, ironically, we just talked about, right? Right. That’s right. when, when God flooded out, I had, I had, I had actually had them, had a ripping sound. And back then this is like nineties, which like, this was like cutting edge stuff. Right. And then, and then the curtain opened and then I had placed lights and it was supposed to be so foggy that it was supposed to look like the light had sort of like flooded out. Right. So we dimmed the auditorium, everything was dark. And all of a sudden the rumbling sound happened, the ripping sound happened. And then all of a sudden the curtains open and this fog had happened. And I don’t know what took place. I have no idea as to this day, but I’m talking like, meh, meh, meh for like over, like almost like two minutes. Right.

Jeff:
And by the way, I set off a fog alarm or a fire alarm one time with fog too.

Chris:
And the pastor who was reluctant to let me even speak, that was my first time. No, it might have been the second time speaking on stage. He was out of town and had to come back and hear about it.

Jeff:
Great. Yeah, it was awful. That’s terrible. Well, good. Man, I blew it. I chose the wrong one right from the very get-go.

Chris:
Good job, Chris.

Jeff:
Well, you’re just a better liar than me.

Chris:
Well, I didn’t realize I had mentioned the Nicodemus story before to you. But it worked out perfect for you. Because it was so funny to me, I probably tell people that story.

Jeff:
It’s funny. Okay. So we are, and by the way, we’re going to do the, we’re going to talk about the story of the Temple Veil tearing in a few weeks.

Chris:
Yeah, a few weeks. By the way, no comment on the legs things. That’s funny, isn’t it?

Jeff:
That’s great. No, go put your pants back on. This isn’t working.

Chris:
Teenagers are judgmental, aren’t they?

Jeff:
They are. He saved you from just horrible ridicule.

Chris:
Yeah.

Jeff:
Yeah. Okay. Well, hey, John chapter 17, verse 20, Jesus is going to pray for you today. And for me and for everybody, all of our listeners, this is where he’s at in John chapter 17, verse 20. It says, I am praying not only for these disciples, but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. That’s you and me. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one, as you are in me, father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me. I’ve given them the glory you gave me so they may be one as we are one. I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me. Father, I want these whom you have given me to be with me where I am. Then they can see all the glory you gave me because you loved me even before the world began. Oh, righteous father, the world doesn’t know you, but I do. And these disciples know you sent me. I have revealed you to them and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them and I will be in them.”

Chris:
And there it is.

Jeff:
So he’s praying for unity.

Chris:
Right. And the church to be one.

Jeff:
You want to know what Jesus prayed for for you? He prayed that. That’s the only prayer he prayed specifically for you and for me was that one. He prayed that we’d be one.

Chris:
Yeah, and the author of Hebrews says Jesus, when he was on the cross, he said he endured the cross for the joy that was set before him. Remember? And you remember yesterday we talked about how he said just about labor and delivery? Yes. And he said how the cross will one day be joyous? Yes. And I always think about that that comment, because you said this is the only time he prayed for me and you. Yes, you’re correct in terms of an actual official prayer, but I’d like to believe that the joy that was set before him on the cross, according to Hebrews, was also you and me, right? Oh, sure.

Jeff:
Everything he did was for you and me.

Chris:
Yeah, of course, of course. But in that moment, just because the words are written down on the black and white paper, it says, for the joy set before him, And it just links back to yesterday’s podcast where he says, you know, that there’s going to be joy afterwards and looking to the future. But in that case, I think the joy was the salvation of the human race. Absolutely. And so we were on his mind.

Jeff:
Yeah, we were on his mind. I think what I was pointing out is sometimes it’s easy to say, well, that was for the disciples or that was back then. Right. And here he says, I’m praying not only for these disciples, but also all who will ever believe in me. Which is incredible. Through their message, right? So this is the only time that he actually, with his own words, refers to us.

Chris:
Yeah.

Jeff:
Right. Other times he refers generically, for God so loved the world that he loved it. He speaks generically. But in this he’s speaking specifically to not the people in front of me, but the people that will come after.

Chris:
Everybody included in the future who will ever believe in me. That’s right. From now to the end of time.

Jeff:
And so when he only prays one prayer specifically only for those who come after the disciples, in that prayer, the thing he asks God for is that we’d be one.

Chris:
He wants oneness. So let’s talk about this. There’s a lot of religion in the world today. There’s a lot of different religions that believe a lot of different things. And so I would, I would say, and I think we could build a very strong case here that who he’s praying for, we can capitalize that with as the church, big C, right? The big C church. And whenever you hear somebody in church world, say the church with the big C, they’re not referring to an individual building or even a denomination. They’re referring to the group of people that Jesus is praying for, which is every person who believes in Jesus. We believe that’s the definition of the church. Right, that’s correct. Of the Big C Church.

Jeff:
And then that’s why Heritage Church has a small h, a small c in our logo, is we’re not the Big C Church, we’re just a part of it, we’re the Little C Church.

Chris:
Oh cool, I didn’t know that. That was the motivation behind that? That’s cool. That makes it way cooler. The idea that every religion is a part of the church is not accurate. There are a lot of religions out there that don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the way to heaven. There’s a lot of denominations that are churchy, but they’re not the church big C, because they don’t believe in Jesus. So I believe that every And I know you do too. Every church that’s out there that can answer the question, how do you get to heaven? And that way includes and is exclusive to Jesus dying on the cross and through that sacrifice, then that, then that would be the people that Jesus prayed for, which is the church.

Jeff:
So, um, the, uh, I had a meeting in Cairo several years ago and we wound up meeting with the Pope of the Coptic Church. I think I’ve told this story before. He oversees one of the largest Christian denominations in the world and the oldest. So the oldest church that we know of that’s still in existence today is the church that Mark, the author of the book of Mark, started in Alexandria in like 42 AD. And he eventually died as a martyr there, but that church eventually became what is the Coptic Church. And so Pope Tawadros II is in the direct lineage of all of the leaders of that church up until modern times. And so we wound up having a meeting with him because we were doing some other work. And I thanked him because his reputation is that he protects other Christians. And in English, he told me, he said, you know, the name on our church signs, serves only to tell other Christians why we disagree with each other. But the blood of our martyrs is mingled. And he talked about, you know, it’s in Christ alone, by faith alone, right? In God alone.

Chris:
It’s amazing. The blood of our martyrs are mingled.

Jeff:
Yeah. But I came away thinking he’s right. You know, Jesus isn’t up there trying to sort out the Baptists from the Presbyterians, from the Methodists, from the Nazarenes, from the Church of God, from the, right? That’s not what he’s doing. For him, he sees the family of God. So the church signs only tell us, the names on our church signs only tell us why we disagree with each other. The world doesn’t even know. Lost people don’t know. A person who doesn’t know Jesus has no concept of the difference between a Baptist and a Catholic, right? Other than maybe one, you know, hey, non-denominational churches, their music’s more fun, right? But they don’t know. They don’t know the difference theologically. And so there are, and I’m not saying that our theological differences don’t matter. They do matter. Sure. Right. But fundamentally, on the big scale, he’s saying even as you have differences of opinion about the nuances of your theology, I still desire that you be one. And sometimes in the movement you and I grew up in, our movement took pride in being separate from instead of being one with. Yes. And so today I was on a call.

Chris:
That’s a massive statement there, buddy. Yeah.

Jeff:
Massive statement. But every denomination has that temptation. Every group of Christians has that temptation. So I was on a phone call today with some pastors from Iraq. and they are helping launch churches all over the Middle East in places that you wouldn’t believe there would be any churches. They’re planting churches. It’s so exciting. And they were asking then, because we’re talking about starting this church planting movement in the Middle East through the Timothy Initiative, and they were asking, so who do we work with? And we said, okay, so what you were saying, the big C, we all agree on Jesus, what you’re talking about is orthodoxy, right? So if you want the theological word, orthodoxy is that there is a God, one God, the triune God, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, He gave us his word, he created us, and we are subject to him. We sinned and we are separated from him because of our sin. So then the whole rest of the Bible is God setting up a system to rescue us from our sins and sending us on a mission. And the way he did that was that Jesus was the virgin-born son of God, He lived a sinless life. He paid the price for our sin with his blood on the cross. He took the punishment of our sin in his body because he did not deserve to pay the price. He chose to do it for us. He was put in the tomb and rose again on the third day. He ascended back to the Father and he’ll come back and judge us someday. And salvation is by grace through faith in Christ plus nothing. That’s the orthodox Christian view. And then, all the other things, we can talk about communion. How often should you have communion? Is baptism by sprinkling or is baptism by immersion? Should we have our services on Saturday or should we have our services on Sunday? Is it right to have loud music on a Sunday morning? All those things divide us as denominations, but we have unity on the orthodox Christian view. doctrines of who Jesus is and the mechanisms of salvation. That has to come. And so those are the things we can be unified in. So the other thing is Jesus invites us to unity. He doesn’t invite us to conformity. Right? So I don’t have to be like everybody else. and I’m free to have opinions about the non-Orthodox theological issues. I can have varying opinions about those things. I don’t have to conform. He gave me a mind and he gave me the ability to study the Word too. But with regard to these key elements, we have to have unity.

Chris:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. And by the way, it’s a good thing to talk about this. I remember hearing, so a pastor of, I don’t know, I don’t want to say his name. Go say his name. I don’t want to say his name. There’s a pastor who, when I was in Georgia, I remember them opening a church. It was a very, very large church. And there’s a lot of large churches in Georgia, but this happens to be… Do you have an address? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got a web address? Yeah. they said something about, well, don’t you see your placement of this new church that you built? Don’t you see it as a major competition for the church down the street? And I remember them saying a phrase that I just thought, this is brilliant. They said, well, we don’t think that our competition is with any church around the street. Our competition is NFL football and the Georgia aquarium. Yeah.

Jeff:
That’s our competition. Movie theaters, golf courses. That’s right. That’s right. The pillow.

Chris:
Yes, the pillow. And I just remember thinking like, oh my gosh, that’s brilliant. And I remember that, hearing that. And I remember moving up to Michigan after that. And I remember joining a church and that pastor was planning on, you know, the lead pastor I worked for, he was planning on starting a church in a city, a nearby city, within like a year. And we had already had like 400 people that were itching to launch this church. Well, the church that I just mentioned in Georgia, that same church, was also planting a church in that same city. And they had sent up the pastor up here to plant a church. Well, the guy I’m working for puts him on the stage. Puts him on the stage. He has no ties to this guy. And he stands up there, and granted, I’m only a few weeks in. I’m hired like 14 days. And he sets him on stage and he makes this comment. He says, Hey man, but we would love, we would love nothing more than three or four hundred of you who live in this city to leave our church and go be a part of his church so that his church can be successful. And I remember thinking, based on my background, I remember thinking to myself, there is no way that he meant any of that. Because everybody knows that if three or four hundred people leave, That’s a large part of growth.

Jeff:
But you and I know he did mean it. He meant it. He did mean it.

Chris:
Yeah, he meant it. And that means they take their tithes and offerings, they take their budget, they take their volunteerism.

Jeff:
God’s not broke and he knows where his resources are. And so when you’re cooperating with his kingdom and his movement, and you’re cooperating with the Big C Church, he’ll always have the resources for you.

Chris:
And I remember learning over time that we’re not against every other church down the corner, Not at all. Even if it has another denomination on it, right? If they’re part of the big C church, right? We are for them, right? And we may not necessarily agree on all things, and by the way, it’s okay to disagree and still worship side by side. Absolutely. Absolutely it is, right? In fact, I would even argue and say this. uh, we have more in common than what we are, you know, how we’re different. Yeah. We have more in common than, than, than our differences, uh, because we believe in the Orthodox Christianity, uh, you know, and so, uh, and so I just learned a long, long time ago that, uh, we’re not in competition with any other church, which by the way was opposite of of the culture that I grew up in.

Jeff:
So we recently had a family come and say, hey, we feel like the Lord’s moving us, going to move us away. We’re not sure where yet, which is rare. I think God moves you to a thing. He rarely ever leads you away from a thing, from a church. I think he usually leads you to a church, but on occasion, God will do this other thing. And so we literally gave them a list of churches we think are great in the community. Right in our community. So we, hey, we love these guys. I know these pastors, we love these people, and we gave them a list of churches to go, hey, go try these out. Because I get it, sometimes God gives people like this holy discontent, they’re ready to make a change or whatever. I always caution, rarely does God ever lead you away from a church. He usually leads you to a ministry that he needs you to do somewhere, right? And so that means we say goodbye to one. That’s what he always did with Paul. That’s what he did with Barnabas. That’s what he did with Peter. That’s what he did with James and John, right? He led them away. That’s what they did. And he led them to another place, not just from a place. But yeah, we do that. We’ve given lists of churches that we think are great in the area that we’re happy. We are thrilled. Heritage Church failed. We failed as leaders if people leave and just quit God and quit the church. Sure, but sometimes God says, hey, I need to move this asset from this place that’s prepared, and I need to move them over into this place that has a deficit, and to make this other church stronger. And so we’re thrilled that we get to be a part of that process, because we’re not in competition. There’s lots of people who don’t know Jesus in our area, and so let’s just go get some. Right? Right. That’s it. We got to go tell more people about Jesus. If we’re trying to hang on to the ones God’s loaned to us, they’re not really ours, right? He might be moving them on. And if that’s the case, God bless you. We support, we celebrate the fact that all the churches in the area are thriving and doing well.

Chris:
Yeah, that’s great. Well, Hey, it looks like that is our time. So we will pick up on Monday and hopefully we’ll see you there on The Bible Guys.