Transcription

Connor:
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Chris:
Hey, welcome to The Bible Guys. My name is Chris.

Jeff:
And I’m Jeff.

Chris:
And here we are at a different location.

Jeff:
That’s right. So our regular studio wasn’t available today. Yes. And so we’re sitting on the stage at Heritage Church. Yes. And making it happen.

Chris:
And by the way, for those of you who are listening, which actually are most of our

Jeff:
Listeners most of our listeners are listening.

Chris:
Yeah. Yeah instead of watching because I guess they watch and listen so they could be all listeners, right? Yeah, sure. Yeah, but but only but only summer watchers. That’s right. So what is the ratio by the way?

Jeff:
Almost 50-50. Is it? Yeah.

Chris:
Well, hey, we’re on the stage at Heritage Church, for those of you who are watching and don’t attend Heritage. Now, we’re filming this just a few days, actually, after our Easter weekend services. That’s right. So on this stage, we had 14 services. We had another five services at the other location. It’s pretty intense.

Jeff:
Yeah, it was amazing. I was pretty wiped out afterwards.

Chris:
Yeah, I would say so. But you know, you and I split the services, but like Trey sang all 14. Yeah, yeah. It was pretty crazy.

Jeff:
And Rachel. Well, if you got a good horse, ride it.

Chris:
Right. You know what I mean? So I can’t believe his voice held up.

Jeff:
He did a great job. Yeah, they did a great job.

Chris:
And by the way, just in case you’re wondering, we had about 8,500 people show up in person, about 3,000 online for 11,500 ish. Yeah. Give or take a few, which is pretty humbling and pretty incredible.

Jeff:
Yeah, it was fantastic, just a fantastic weekend all the way around. So it’s always fun when you get the whole family together and celebrate the resurrection, and it was very powerful. We had a lot of people make first-time professions of faith, and it was just really incredible. I agree. Well, hey, we are talking about the Easter time slot or events. There’s a really great question that came in online, and so we have a segment called Stump the Pastor. And so this one is to stump you today, I think. Yeah, do we need a jingle for that?

Chris:
Stump the pastor. How about like a sound effect there? Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. Yeah, something like that. How about if I read it?

Jeff:
Okay, you go ahead.

Chris:
So Cecilia G., thank you Cecilia, writes in this. My question is about Judas Iscariot. Since the betrayal was preordained in the Old Testament, did Judas ever stand a chance of being saved? Did Jesus choose him knowing that his heart would never be pure? Or were all the disciples quote unquote available to fulfill the prophecy and Judas just happened to be the one whose heart never really, really developed faith in Jesus. I saw Jesus Christ Superstar on Broadway and I watched the movie The Passion every year at Easter and I can’t help to feel a little sorry for Judas. Can you guys speak into this? Says Cecilia. Well there you go. It’s a great thinking question. It is, it’s a great question. So really it’s a question about predestination.

Jeff:
That’s correct.

Chris:
Yeah, because what you’re really asking, Cecilia, is you’re asking, it’s sort of the chicken or the egg kind of a thing, which is, you know, did God predict knowing Judas’ choices, or was Judas just had no other choice but to fulfill God’s prediction?

Jeff:
Yeah, so did God choose Judas because God knew Judas would betray Jesus, or was Judas made so that he would betray Jesus?

Chris:
Yeah, which by the way, if you want to take that one preordained prophecy in the Old Testament about somebody betraying him for 30 pieces of silver, then the other questions are, did the Roman soldiers have no choice but to crucify Jesus? Did Caiaphas have no free will? but to condemn Jesus or Pilate or all of these guys? Or did God just know what was gonna happen in advance? It really opens up the can of worms to not only all the events surrounding Easter and his death, burial, and resurrection, but it also opens it up to today in 2024. And so what’s your answer? Well, you know, it’s a funny thing. Here’s actually my official answer. My official answer is I believe yes and no. I believe that just because I believe that God gives us free choice. I believe you and I have absolute free choice. And I believe that God absolutely knows that we are going to choose. So I know a lot of different people who have talked a lot about this predestination Calvinism, right, or the reformed Christianity. You know, there’s a lot of debate about that. And if we have absolute free will, then that means God knows all of our choices and he doesn’t necessarily know what we’re going to choose. Or maybe God knows all of our choices, but he knows which choice we’re going to make. I believe that’s the case. I believe that he knows all of our choices that we could make. but he also knows the choice that we will make. I believe we have free will. I believe Judas had free will, just like everybody else. But God absolutely knew that it was going to be Judas.

Jeff:
That’s what I believe. Yeah. And then you’re also very comfortable in saying, we don’t know.

Chris:
Yeah, very much so. Because the mystery of God is, So I have on my phone all of the verses about predestination, okay? So I pulled them up and I said, okay, what are all the verses on predestination? And there are Ephesians 1, Romans 8, Acts 13, Romans 9, And then a few Old Testament obscurities. And then 1 Peter 1 sort of does. And then there’s a couple predictions and prophecies. Oh, you know, the Son of Man is going to be betrayed, that kind of thing. So in every case, so you only have maybe, you know, less than a dozen scriptures about it. And in every case, the only, quite honestly, this, I don’t want to insult anybody or step on anybody’s toes, but The only thing it says in any of these verses is that God knows, right? Like He has chosen.

Jeff:
It uses phrases like foreordained. Yep. Or predestined.

Chris:
Yep, or chose. Yep, chose. Yep. And so again, in my mind, I believe it’s both. I believe that God knows because He knows.

Jeff:
So for every verse, and you know, I love doing this, I make my Calvinist friends upset. I make my Armenian friends upset, you know, because I never will land on one side or the other. I’m content to live in the tension between these two things, too. But for every verse where you can identify predestination, you can also find whosoever will may come kind of idea, right? Where God talks about free will, free choice.

Chris:
I would argue more verses like that.

Jeff:
So it’s pretty close to equal. But here’s my response to this. So this is really, really a great question. And we’ve hem-hawed around this for a little bit. So here’s the thing. God is not inside time. So when you use a phrase like predestined, what you’re talking about is minutes and days, minutes and hours and days and years. It’s predestined in time. But because I believe God’s not in time, time is inconsequential to him. It’s all now, right? And so in that context then, he could look into Judas’s life and know that’s the decision Judas made. Thus, Judas was there. And so yeah, it is kind of a chicken and egg kind of a thing which came first. I don’t know that any sinner deserves any more compassion than any other. None of us deserve compassion, but God gives grace anyways. And what we do know is that Judas did not repent. So Judas being, so the prophecy in the Old Testament was not that Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and that the betrayer must go to hell. So Judas, all sin is forgivable, right? But the Bible does say that Judas went to his own place and kind of implies the eternal destruction that he didn’t repent. And that’s the issue. So repentance was one of those things that is always available. Whether he was preordained that he would give Jesus up.

Chris:
Well, Jesus did say, it’s better for that man who’s gonna betray me, better for him not to be born. And he also said headed for destruction. So before Jesus even betrayed him.

Jeff:
But again, that’s what I’m saying is there’s no time. So the decision was already known before it happened.

Chris:
Yeah, I believe that as well. You know, the Bible indicates in so many places that a day is like a thousand years, which is like, wow. But then the opposite of that is, and a thousand years is like a day. And so it’s like, what? How does that even make any sense? So yeah, I believe that as well. In fact, somebody, I read something online the other day, I shouldn’t even bring it up. but you remember the transfiguration right where Jesus, you know his face shown like the Sun and then Peter James and John were up there and then they saw Moses and Elijah. Mm-hmm Somebody proposed I read this thing where it said I wonder if because God doesn’t exist outside of time I wonder if Moses and Elijah does exist outside of time. Oh, excuse me. That’s what I meant but because men don’t right and I wonder if in that moment, Elijah and Moses were called to that moment in their lifetime. which could mean that they had this experience.

Jeff:
Yeah, that’ll be another stump the pastor questions.

Chris:
Right, right. But you know, it’s kind of like those kind of thoughts, right?

Jeff:
Well, when you start talking about time, it’s a confusing thing, right? Even for the best scientist, Einstein, a bunch of the others struggled with that. And it’s really fascinating stuff, makes for interesting movies. But ultimately, you know, what it comes down to is God knows, and at the same time, people are free. And there’s a tension between those two issues. And so when I say, you know, Judas doesn’t deserve any more compassion than anybody else, we all can have compassion, one towards another, the fact that we’re sinners, but at the same time, we all have made our choices. And so there’s a struggle there. Yeah. So anyways, great questions, Cecilia. Yes. Man alive. Good thinking. And ultimately that was a 10 minute answer to say, we’re not sure.

Chris:
That’s exactly correct. That’s exactly correct. But at the same time, downloading all the thoughts.

Jeff:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it’s fun. I think there’s value in this. And this is what I wanted to say earlier is sometimes you’re very comfortable to say, we don’t know, and I’m comfortable to accept that from you. And at the same time, I’m uncomfortable because I think that it’s important to work through plausible answers. Yeah. What’s the evidences in scripture, even though there’s not a direct reference and go, Hey, here’s a plausible response. Right. Right. I’m not content to just leave things with, I don’t know. I want to always say what is a plausible way of viewing it.

Chris:
Yeah, and I feel the exact same way about everything. I prefer somebody to say, even though we don’t know, what I believe is this based on this evidence.

Jeff:
That’s correct. All right. Okay, so we have two passages, two short passages, Luke chapter 24, 44 through 49, and then also Acts 1, 4 through 5. And this is where Jesus appears to the disciples in Jerusalem And you know, these are there’s several appearances after the resurrection and this is one of them So here’s what it says in Luke chapter 24. It says then he said when I was with you before I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled and Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures and he said yes It was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day And it was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of my name to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent. And you are witnesses of all these things. And now I will send the Holy Spirit, just as my father promised, but stay here in the city until the Holy Spirit comes and fills you with power from heaven. And then in Acts chapter one, four and five, it says, once when he was eating with them, he commanded them, do not leave Jerusalem until the father sends you the gift he promised. As I told you before, John baptized with water, but in just a few days, you’ll be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Chris:
Yeah, you’ll be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Now, it’s interesting too, because earlier, a couple of podcasts ago, we read that Jesus breathed on them, they received the Holy Spirit. But at the same time, he’s not necessarily saying that he only met with the 12 here. He’s saying once he was eating with them, he commanded them, do not leave Jerusalem until the Father sends you the gift. It’s not specifying in Acts 1 that he’s only talking to the 11.

Jeff:
That’s correct.

Chris:
So he’s probably announcing to those who have not yet received the Holy Spirit that they’re going to.

Jeff:
And it doesn’t say that they received the Holy Spirit. There’s no indication that when Jesus breathed on them and said, Oh, yeah receive the Holy Spirit that they in that moment receive the Holy Spirit as much as you’re saying you’re going to receive the Holy Spirit because he keeps referencing this idea and Traditionally historically we would view Acts chapter 1 1 2 as the Holy Spirit right coming upon people at Pentecost So anyways, here you go. Jesus is talking and he says hey I’ve already told you this that Every single prophecy about me has to be fulfilled every single one and this is one of the indicators of for us to be able to go through scripture and look at all the different prophecies of the Messiah and Then measure Jesus by he invites you to measure him and his authenticity by whether or not every single Prophecy was fulfilled.

Chris:
Yeah Well, you know, this reminds me of is on Palm Sunday here at Heritage, I was diving into just the scriptures that were fulfilled even in that last week of Holy Week, when Jesus entered into Jerusalem at the triumphal entry and then fulfilled dozens and dozens and dozens of scriptures. In fact, I referenced some of them and when I looked them up and I really dove into them, even Psalm 22, the details about his crucifixion, I was reading those things and I was like, holy cow, there’s over a dozen details about his crucifixion just in Psalm 22, right? And so it’s interesting also because he makes a comment and says, it was written that he was supposed to suffer and rise again on the third day. And I’ve met people my entire life who think that Jesus had to bake in the tomb for at least 72 hours in order to qualify that statement, right? So in other words, he has to be in the tomb for three full days.

Jeff:
You didn’t literally mean bake, but… No, I was… You were talking about the 72 hours.

Chris:
I was kidding. I was kidding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a ding, you know, I’ve been in 72 hours. No, of course not bake.

Jeff:
And you’re content with the idea that he was in there for parts of each of those?

Chris:
Well, I mean, the scripture is really clear, super clear, exactly when he died on Friday, because there’s indications that the Pharisees wanted to hurry the crucifixion, or the sentencing, before the Sabbath came, because they said, we have to do this quickly, because it’s unlawful to crucify somebody on the Sabbath. So they had to hang him on the cross on Friday. And it tells us very specifically that at three o’clock he breathes his last. The next day started at 6 p.m., we know that. So we know for a fact that he died at 3 p.m., and so even though he- 3 p.m.

Jeff:
on Friday.

Chris:
3 p.m. on Friday. Again, that is three hours before Saturday, because their Jewish calendar ran from 6 p.m. to 6 p.m., sundown to sundown. And so therefore, I don’t know how long it takes somebody to take a body and place him in the tomb, but clearly he was in the tomb before the Sabbath.

Jeff:
So in the time frame between 3 o’clock and 6 p.m., he was in the tomb.

Chris:
He was in the tomb.

Jeff:
So that counts as one day.

Chris:
That counts as on, well, it counts as the day of Friday, because he didn’t say, I’ll be in the tomb for three days, that’s my point. He said on the third day. So that counts as day one, but not one full day.

Jeff:
And then- He referenced it with Jonah. He said his Jonah was in the whale for three days and three nights. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he did say three days and three nights. Yeah, that’s right. But what you’re saying is, according to the evidences in scripture, the fact that he was in the tomb on Friday at any point counts as a day. He was there that day on Friday. He was there that day on Saturday. And then after the day started on Sunday, he was in the tomb.

Chris:
And we know that it’s really clear that they went to the tomb while it was dark, the scripture says. And then the other gospels say just at sunrise, the earthquake. So it was just at that moment. So that’s pretty specific, although it doesn’t lame the hour. So if you’re assuming that the sunrise happened 6 a.m., then he was in the tomb approximately 38 or 39 hours. If it was later than that, or if it took them longer to bury him, that’s the give and take.

Jeff:
Right.

Chris:
So there you go.

Jeff:
Anyways, but you’re talking about the specificity of prophecies.

Chris:
Yeah, and and and just keep in mind that that again he had fulfilled prophecy with every single action You know, and so that’s all I’m trying to point out is it wasn’t a violation Because he said on the third day.

Jeff:
Yeah, so so He says everything that was written about me in the law of Moses Everything that was written about me in all of the prophets everything that was written about me in the Psalms, right? so basically he’s referring to Everything that had all of the Bible that had been written up to his point.

Chris:
Mm-hmm, right?

Jeff:
So everything in the Old Testament Yep Old Testament and so his in the life application study Bible notes It mentions his role as prophet was foretold in Deuteronomy chapter 18. His sufferings were prophesied in Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 his resurrection was predicted in Psalm 16 and Isaiah 53 and you can go on and on and on and on and on so Jesus is inviting you to investigate him and based on all of the prophecies and claims of the Messiah, and that where he was born, how he lived his life, the things that he said and that he did, and then ultimately all of those that lead up to his death, burial, and resurrection. And if you can disprove one of them, then Jesus isn’t the Messiah.

Chris:
That’s correct.

Jeff:
That’s his claim. So you’re talking about confidence in the Word of God and talking about confidence in what He actually fulfilled, He’s saying, if you can just prove one, and this is why so many people, atheists in particular, really reject miracles or they really reject the resurrection. If they can try to disassemble one of those two things, then Jesus isn’t really who He says He was. And so He’s inviting them to say that, or to study that, to investigate it, and I would too. If you’re struggling with faith, if you’re trying to figure out what to believe about Jesus. Dig in, there are so many resources about whether or not we can trust the resurrection. I really like Lee Strobel, who has written a lot of good books, you know, The Case for Christ, The Case for the Real Jesus, The Case for a Creator, you can go on. And so Lee Strobel has a degree, a law degree from Yale, and then became, he was I think the youngest editor, law editor for the Chicago Sun-Times. And his wife became a Christian, and he was a little bit mad about it, because they were committed atheists. And so he decided to do an investigation to try to disprove Christianity. And that’s what he decided was, Jesus makes this claim and says, hey, everything, I already told you, everything that was said about the Messiah, I had to fulfill. And so he decided, okay, if I can disprove anything, and he decided to particularly go after the resurrection. And in the meantime, as he begun doing this study with experts all around the country, doing all kinds of interviews, He winds up becoming a Christian because he couldn’t disprove Jesus’ claims. And then he writes all these really great books, and he writes them investigatively, having interviewed in the books some of the greatest thinkers and greatest minds on these things. And so, hey, there’s a lot of good resources out there. Go out and read The Case for Christ if you’re struggling with this, because these are the claims Jesus made, and he invites you to test him on it.

Chris:
And it reminds me also of Louie Giglio. So Louie, matter of fact, we’re starting small group tonight when we’re recording this. And tonight is our first session with our small group with Louie’s study that we’re doing. So a couple weeks ago. Yeah, a couple weeks ago for the listener, right? Yeah.

Jeff:
But anyway… It’s incidental information they didn’t need.

Chris:
Yeah, well, Luis Giglio basically did the same thing that Lee Strobel did. So he has two sort of major themes in his messages proving, you know, the case for the Creator and the case for Christ and everything else. But basically he goes large in the universe, talking about the precision of the universe. That’s one angle. And he does this tremendous thing. And then he goes inward and he looks at biology. And then he just goes inward, which is what Lee Strobel does too, right? On the case of the Creator. He goes inward and he talks, he looks at the human DNA and how God’s designed the body and things like that. And it’s remarkable how when you’re presented with all that evidence and you’re like, okay, you know, even basic logic and basic design, you know, I thought that that was pretty incredible. So I thought Lee did a great job.

Jeff:
So Jesus then says, hey, the Holy Spirit’s gonna come, just as God promised, and so go wait for me in Galilee, or in Jerusalem, I’m sorry, and so this is about 40 days. What we know in the book of Acts, it doesn’t mention it in these other passages, but in the book of Acts, the Bible says that it was 40 days from the resurrection until the ascension, and then after that, you know, or they waited, I’m sorry, not from the resurrection, They waited for 40 days, and then Pentecost came, and that’s when the Holy Spirit came.

Chris:
Well, Jesus is about to ascend on tomorrow’s podcast. That’s correct. And that will complete this whole series that we’ve been in.

Jeff:
Yeah. Isn’t that neat? Which is pretty crazy. It sure is.

Chris:
Well, that’s about our time. So we will see you, hopefully, as we wrap up this series next time on The Bible Guys.