Transcription

Connor:
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Chris:
And we’re back. It’s a Monday.

Jeff:
Alright, everybody’s favorite.

Chris:
Yes. Well is it?

Jeff:
Well no.

Chris:
Everybody hates Monday. You remember Garfield?

Jeff:
Yes, I remember the character, the cat.

Chris:
Anybody who’s like 45 and older remembers Garfield, right?

Jeff:
Well, that’s back when we used to read the comics in the paper.

Chris:
Right. I used to buy those books, those Garfield books. Oh, the Garfield books? Yeah, but I Hate Mondays was his slogan. Yeah, he hated it. So hey, today is Monday and we’re starting off with a segment called Stump the Pastor.

Jeff:
Ugh, on a Monday. Come on.

Chris:
Come on. At nine in the morning.

Jeff:
Now we have to think a little bit. Yeah, it’s nine here. What is it? When we’re recording. What is it? Did you read it already?

Chris:
Actually, I glanced over it like two seconds ago. Okay. So here’s what it says. This is from Steve W. Hi, Steve W. In the past, you have described what heaven is like to the best of your ability. Some guesswork, of course, involved, but I’ve never heard this subject mentioned, period. Is there free will in heaven? Question mark. If so, then isn’t the opportunity for sin a possibility? Wow. That’s a great thinking question.

Jeff:
Yeah, what do you think?

Chris:
Well, no. Sin’s not a possibility. And the reason why is because heaven is described as perfect without sin, without sorrow, without night or tears, right? So it’s described as paradise. And so if sin isn’t a possibility, then one of two things would have to happen. Either A, our sin nature is removed. So we have free will. But then again, in paradise, Adam and Eve had free will, right? And they chose sin.

Jeff:
So did Lucifer.

Chris:
So did Lucifer. Wait a minute. Are you saying that you think sin is going to be a possibility in heaven?

Jeff:
That’s not what I said. So he asks two questions. He asks an if then question, right? So the first one is, is there free will in heaven? And if so, then does that mean there’s sin possible? Yeah.

Chris:
So I think if sin is possible, then does God have free will? Does God have free will? I would say yes.

Jeff:
Does he sin? No. Is it possible for him to sin?

Chris:
I don’t know.

Jeff:
So free will means that we’re self-determinant. We can make our own choices, right?

Chris:
Sure.

Jeff:
Yeah. And God is the ultimate free will. We’re made in his image, right? So, um, but, and yet the Bible says it’s impossible for him to sin. And it’s because he is so Holy, but he’s, he has free will. That’s why I believe that the temptations that Jesus were legit temptations and not just a formality that the devil was going through.

Chris:
Oh, that’s a good point.

Jeff:
Yeah. So, but he’s so perfectly holy that he can’t sin. It’s not possible. It’s against his character. And the Bible says that when we see him, we will be like him. We will see him as he is.

Chris:
So that’ll be impossible for us to sin.

Jeff:
So we will have free will. Yes. Can we sin? I don’t think so.

Chris:
Okay, so we’ll be more like him.

Jeff:
But he asked two questions. He asked two questions. So I think the front end, I think, yeah, we have free will, certainly, but we’ll be like God at that point. We won’t be gods, but the Bible literally says we will see him as he is. We’ll be like him because we’ll see him as he is.

Chris:
So you think we’ll inherit the character of making it impossible for us to sin?

Jeff:
Yeah, and I think the reason why we have to have free will is, I can’t imagine heaven without love. Right. And there’s no love without a choice.

Chris:
Yeah, well, and to your point, the angels had free will. Yeah. Right? Lucifer had free will.

Jeff:
Yeah. So I think at that point, so here’s the thing. We will have been beings consumed by sin. You and I, even the best Christian, you know, listening to the podcast today, better Christians than us, because I know you pretty well, better Christians than us, when they get to heaven we’ll discover how unbelievably tainted and consumed by sin we are. It’s unfathomable.

Chris:
Yeah, I believe that for sure.

Jeff:
And then, it would be like, how many times have you ever had to touch a hot stove before you decided, I’m not touching hot stoves anymore. Right. Your free will now is choosing not to touch any more hot stoves. Right. Right. So when you have, when you discover that the single worst thing about you was almost all day, every day while you were on earth, and yet God loved you and redeemed you, takes you to heaven. And then you see him. And so you’re like him. The Bible says, I think what happens is we will be purged of the desire for sin, but we will still be completely and totally autonomous. Otherwise there is no love and we’ll just be robots walking around. Sure. That’s not what God made. Right. Yeah. So yeah, Steve, I think, uh, I think we’ll have free will. I don’t think sin is a possibility, not because it’s been, the possibility has been erased, but because it’s the same as we would never go back. Not at that point.

Chris:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff:
So Satan didn’t not, Lucifer didn’t know the consequence of sin.

Chris:
Right.

Jeff:
Right. He’d never lived it and then lived the benefit of not. We’re on the flip side of the angels process.

Chris:
He could have been warned.

Jeff:
Yeah, but still, you know, hey, don’t touch that stove. Don’t touch that stove. Right? There’s a big difference between living it and then being redeemed from it versus knowing the potential of it and choosing it. Because, I’ll be honest with you, if Adam and Eve had ever lost a loved one, if Adam and Eve had ever seen somebody die from cancer, if Adam and Eve had ever seen death, they would have never eaten that stupid apple.

Chris:
Right. Or fruit. Right. Or whatever it was. Yeah. Yeah. So that is, that is a great answer. And I think we’re at our time for the segment.

Jeff:
So good job, Steve. I think that’s a good one.

Chris:
And we both landed at the same place. Yes. Free will. Impossible to sin.

Jeff:
Yes. I don’t think it’s possible to sin. Impossible to sin.

Chris:
Yeah. That’s what I said. Impossible to sin. Good. Awesome. All right. Well, we’re going to move on to the fig tree. Jesus curses the fig tree.

Jeff:
Yeah. So now he’s going to go and write all kinds of stuff on the internet and all these theologians are going to say we’re heretics or something. Do you think, are you worried about that? I don’t know. I don’t care.

Chris:
Do you think I care one iota? Oh my goodness. You could have, you could have chosen something that I care less about. You could have talked about like trees and China. I’d be like, I care more about that.

Jeff:
Okay. So anyway, it’s a good one, Steve. Really, really good thinking on that one.

Chris:
Which by the way, cherry blossoms. Cherry blossoms, there you go. Cherry blossoms, I’ve discovered recently, are the most beautiful trees ever.

Jeff:
Okay. Very good.

Chris:
Good for you. Don’t you think?

Jeff:
Well, I think I’m right to that point that you’d said earlier of I couldn’t care less. All right.

Chris:
Matthew 21 and Mark 11.

Jeff:
Yeah, so this is Jesus curses a fig tree. This is a really kind of odd story. It says, in the morning as Jesus was returning to Jerusalem, he was hungry and he noticed a fig tree beside the road. And he went over to see if there were any figs, but there were only leaves. Then he said to it, may you never bear fruit again. And immediately the fig tree withered up. The disciples were amazed when they saw this and asked, how did the fig tree wither so quickly? And Jesus told them, I tell you the truth. If you have faith and don’t doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, may you be lifted up and thrown into the sea and it’ll happen. You can pray for anything. And if you have faith, you will receive it. The next morning as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Oh, this is Mark chapter 11. Yeah, I do this sometimes where I just get all excited about reading. So that was Matthew chapter 21.

Chris:
get to read.

Jeff:
Matthew chapter 21.

Chris:
Which by the way is why we let you read.

Jeff:
And then Mark chapter 11 tells the same story. It says, the next morning as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry and he noticed a fig tree in full leaf a little way off. So he went over to see if he could find any figs but there were only leaves because it was too early in the season for fruit. Then Jesus said to the tree, may no one ever eat your fruit again. And the disciples heard him say it. The next morning, as they passed by the fig tree he had cursed, the disciples noticed that it had withered from the roots up. Peter remembered what Jesus had said to the tree on the previous day and exclaimed, Look, Rabbi, the fig tree you cursed has withered and died. Then Jesus said to the disciples, Have faith in God. I tell you the truth. You can say to this mountain, May you be lifted up and thrown into the sea and it’ll happen. But you must really believe it will happen and have no doubt in your heart. I tell you, you can pray for anything and if you believe that you have received it, it’ll be yours. But when you’re praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins too.

Chris:
So within this little fig tree cursing event, Jesus follows it up with this move the mountain comment. How many times have you had conversations with people about this comment. In other words, what I’m trying to say is this could be one of the most controversial things when it comes to, in my experience, people believing, like in other words, let me just explain what I’m saying. Okay. Somebody would say, I prayed to be healed. Yes. Right. And then you weren’t healed. Well, that’s your fault because you didn’t believe it. You didn’t have enough faith. Right. So it’s like, Oh, I have a, I have a chemical imbalance in my, in my brain. Well, just pray and be healed. And then it’s like, well, I prayed and I wasn’t healed. Well, go to a healing service. I went to a healing service. I had people anoint me with oil. I had elders pray over me. I have prayed for 10 years. Well, guess what? All of that is your fault because you didn’t just believe enough. Why? Because that’s what Jesus said. He says, literally, if you believe it with all your heart, you’re going to receive it. And so therefore I name it and I claim it. And therefore everything I want to happen can happen. Yeah. Right. So if you want the, the white house to be picked up and thrown off the face of the earth, because you’re so mad at those politics, uh, if you believe it, you can pray because it’s, it’s smaller than a mountain. So, and yours stumped the pastor go.

Jeff:
That’s what he said. So I know it’s a hard one.

Chris:
It’s a hard one. Yeah. Yeah. So, so what is your response to people who say those things?

Jeff:
My response is, and I’ve used this illustration so many times on this podcast, this is that Kung Fu master telling his followers there’s a whole other level. That’s what I think he’s saying. Because we know that God will not answer prayers, no matter how much faith you have. He will not answer prayers that will do harm to you or to others. He won’t answer prayers that go contrary to his plan. He won’t answer prayers that are contrary to his nature. He won’t answer prayers that are contrary to his promises. So, when you read this passage and Jesus saying, anything you pray for, you get. We already know there’s lots of things we could pray for that we won’t get. We just know it, doesn’t matter how much faith you have. So he’s talking here in things that aren’t against God’s nature, that aren’t against God’s plan, that aren’t against God’s will, that won’t hurt others, that won’t hurt ourselves. That’s what he’s talking about. And so we can’t always know why God doesn’t heal a person. And God tends to, allow nature to take its course, right? When he intervenes, it winds up being a miracle. Jesus is saying here that that’s what that would be, is God choosing to intervene, but that he doesn’t always do miracles. He allows things to play themselves out. And so if God chooses not to answer a prayer for some reason, something that we are sincerely believing for, then there’s something that God is doing in us and or through us, or that he’s trying to teach us, and all of those things will be better than the answered prayer.

Chris:
Yeah. Like, for instance, we did a thing on miraculous prayer being answered at our church a little while ago, and we had Kristen Dabenmeier up on the stage, remember? Yeah. And she had prayed for certain things, uh, that were sort of miraculous where they’d say, God, please do this thing. And then it happened. Right. And it was like, wow, that was amazing. Remember my wife was one of them too. Liz got up there and told her story. But then she told a story about how God sometimes doesn’t answer where, uh, she prayed for something that seemed to be neutral. Right. So like, in other words, like you just mentioned a minute ago, sometimes, you know, we know that if we want something and it’s against God’s will, he’s not going to answer it. But in this particular case, she was praying for a house. She was saying, God, there’s no reason why we can’t have this house. Please let let it close. And this is, you know, everything’s in place. And this is where we want to live. And this is where I desire. Please, God, let us have this house. And then they didn’t get it. And she was like, I’m a person of faith, didn’t understand it. But then she said, then they get this other house. And she said, and all these great miraculous things happen at this other house. And she says, maybe it was just God’s will for us to be in this neighborhood versus this neighborhood. And I’ve always wondered about that because since I heard her story, I thought, well, maybe it was, maybe it was both. Maybe God’s will was lateral. Like maybe, maybe God could have done just as many miraculous things in the first house, right? Maybe she didn’t have enough faith when she prayed in the first house. Maybe it was just circumstantial. Maybe, maybe God just allowed it to play out, you know, but maybe, maybe it wasn’t just like, Oh God forbade me this house so that he could reach Nancy down the street in this neighborhood. Yeah. But maybe it was Bill down the street in that other neighborhood, right? So God’s will could have been lateral there. You feel that way?

Jeff:
Yeah, it could have been either. I don’t think that there’s one linear will of God, right? So it’s about being in the will of God wherever you are is the important one. Yeah, that’s right. So being on mission, is the most important thing, looking for God’s guidance, looking for God’s permission. I think all those things are important, but I don’t think that there’s like, you only have one will of God, you’re walking on that one razor edge line, and then, oh, you bought the wrong house, now you’re, you know, God’s never going to bless you again, and you failed. It’s going to be misery, you probably bought a haunted house.

Chris:
I chose the wrong spouse. I went to the wrong college. I’ve done all these different things. I bought the wrong car, you know, chose the wrong job. It’s one of these things where, I’ve always said this, which you just said, which is God’s perfect will that he describes is love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Love others as you love yourself. So that’s God’s perfect will. Right? So if you’re wondering, oh no, what is God’s perfect will? That’s it. Right? So a lot of times I believe that God can speak. You know, like, you know, I got a job opportunity in Texas. I got a job opportunity in Michigan, which by the way, it was me. And it’s like, oh no, which, which do I choose? I believe that sometimes God can speak very clearly and say, and by the way, we’re getting away from moving mountains a little bit, but this is just an extension of what the topic is. I believe God can speak and whisper in your ear and say, for whatever reason, it’s Michigan. For whatever reason, it’s Texas or whatever, right? Like there’s definitely a time where God can nudge or clearly show you. But then there’s times where it’s silent. where it’s like, I’m praying so hard, you know, and that’s when we get desperate. Show me a sign. Right. And that, and, and, but I believe that each, you know, it could be that God was saying, Hey, you can be in my will in both places. Just choose what you want to choose. Right.

Jeff:
Right. Yeah. I believe that. I think, uh, the other side of this with regard to God, not answering prayers, uh, versus Jesus saying everything you ask for can be, can be done, um, or could be done. Um, this idea that God sometimes has another plan, right? So he’s not going to break his plan. Paul, I mean, his name’s St. Paul. I make jokes about this all the time, but his name’s on people’s church signs.

Chris:
You know what I mean? His real name’s Saul of Tarsus. Yeah, Saul of Tarsus. They changed his name to Paul. We gave him the St. Paul name.

Jeff:
Well, yeah, the Christians changed his name to Paul. And then, but I mean, he’s a big dog. That’s what I’m saying. He wrote most of the second half of the Bible. Almost everything we know about what it means to be a follower of Jesus, Paul told us, right? Yes, of course. And Paul says three times, I asked the Lord to take this thorn in the flesh away from me. And he refused. And instead his answer was, my grace is sufficient for you. Right. And so he said, now I glory in these things. Because when I’m weak, he’s strong. And so sometimes God chooses to allow the things that are in our lives. One, so that we can also rely on his grace, because his grace really is sufficient. It draws us closer to him. In our weakness, we realize that he’s strong. And I think that’s God’s desire is to show up strong in our lives, to do powerful things in us and through us that we would maybe be tempted to take credit for ourselves. except for the fact that, you know, when God does something special, then you go, hey, the only good thing in me is Jesus. You know, it couldn’t be me. I think he allows those things. So if Paul could come back in confidently and with, in all faith in the world, say, I prayed three times God take this away and he didn’t do it. Instead, his grace is enough and I give glory to God for it. Then, you know, maybe it’s okay for us to go, God’s ways aren’t my ways. I don’t always understand what he’s doing, but I trust him. And that’s really what we’re forced to. Now, did you know in the Coptic church, they have a tradition about a mountain moving? Did you know that? No. Yeah. So St. Simon, he was like a prophet, a preacher. in Egypt, and there was a famous sultan, a Muslim, I think, Mamluk leader. And he was open and allowed religions, you know, to be in Egypt at the time, multiple religions. But he was very intrigued by this priest or this preacher. And He began to read the Bible, I guess, and he knew that Jesus said that if you have faith, you could move a mountain. And he said, if your faith can move a mountain, I will leave my faith and come to your faith. Right? So I’m just, I’m remembering the story. So, you know, if you go online and read about it. And so he said, I want you to move that mountain. And Simon was like, you know, it doesn’t always work that way. That’s not, he’s no, that’s what it says. And so Simon prayed, I believe he prayed and fasted for a while. And then one day they woke up and the mountain had moved. It moved from one side to the other side of a, of a Valley. And what’s interesting is historically that’s recorded both by the Coptic Christians and by the Muslims of the day claim that that happened. The Muslims still don’t reject that that happened.

Chris:
So being the skeptic that I am, I immediately say there is no possible way that that happened.

Jeff:
Except Jesus said it could.

Chris:
Isn’t that terrible?

Jeff:
Isn’t that terrible that that’s my first reaction?

Chris:
So they claim, so the Coptics… Again, it’s not my faith in God that I doubt.

Jeff:
It’s my faith in people. Right, right. Right? So, so the, well, what’s, what’s interesting is these are two diametrically opposed groups. Right. Both claiming that the same thing happened to the favor of one. Right. Right? So it doesn’t surprise me that, you know, some Christians would say, Oh yeah, it happened. but to have the ones going, there’s no way it’s going to happen, say, yeah, it happened. And they’ll point, they’ll point at the mountain. It’s not far from, do you know where the trash city is in Cairo? Where all the, all the Coptic, the poor Coptic people collect all the trash and then go through it. And it’s kind of a recycling city.

Chris:
I don’t know where it is, but when we were there.

Jeff:
Yeah, it’s not far from there. There’s a church down under it now in a cave below and all that stuff. They claim it. So, you know, I wasn’t there and unfortunately nobody had any cell phones back then, so nobody was taking video of it. But historically, both groups claimed that it happened. Now, the Sultan did not come to faith in Christ, or Caliph, he might have been, I can’t remember. some bigwig Muslim leader. So they still claim that that actually happened. And if that’s true, that might be the only time I’ve ever heard in Christendom that it happened. But Jesus said it’s possible, and St. Simon was part of that.

Chris:
Now, have you ever heard the explanation that Herod ordered the mountain be moved and they dug it down and built it up? Have you ever heard that explanation? No, no. You’ve never really heard that? No. Oh my goodness, I’ve heard that my whole life. Another explanation was that Jesus was talking about authority, and he wasn’t being, he was referring to a mountain that was literally moved. He said where they were standing, they were looking at Herod’s temple, And so when we were in Israel, they showed us and they said, that is a man-made mountain, that that mountain used to be over here.

Jeff:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that story.

Chris:
But strategically, it was better to have it over here.

Jeff:
Yeah, it’s possible. I don’t know that that’s what he’s saying here.

Chris:
Yeah.

Jeff:
Because it doesn’t say pray to Herod, it says pray to God.

Chris:
No, no, no, no, no. He was referring to authority. Yeah, yeah. Right. Meaning like God. It’s possible. God the Father can speak on command and execute his will.

Jeff:
I think usually we should just read the words as they are on the page, right? But that requires a couple of hoops to jump through. But yeah, one thing before we close, Jesus curses this fig tree, by the way, which is a whole other thing. But it says that it was before the season, it was too early in the season for fruit. It wasn’t supposed to have fruit on it. And he just curses the tree and kills it. And I don’t even know what to do with that. Like, I have no answer for it. I’m just like, what? I guess it’s his purview. He expects fruit. That’s the only thing I can take away from that is he expects fruit. But that’s a really crazy sentence, and I don’t even know what to do with it. So anyways, what I do know is faith matters. God does answer prayers. Miracles can happen. They have to align with God’s will, God’s character, God’s plan. He can’t go against his own promises.

Chris:
Could it be that he cursed the fig tree only to talk about faith.

Jeff:
Totally. Yeah.

Chris:
Totally. Right. Yeah. So it could be that he could teach the parable. Yeah. Because otherwise, why would he just curse it? Because all the plant people out there are like, what? Poor fig tree. Right.

Jeff:
Yeah. And so, hey, that’s a really good, really good thing. So I was anticipating somebody’s probably going to ask that question. So that’s the best answer we have for stump the pastor today.

Chris:
Right. For sure. All right. Well, hey, that’s our time and we’ll see you next time on The Bible Guys.