Transcription

Connor:
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Chris:
Hey everybody, welcome back to The Bible Guys and if you listen yesterday.

Jeff:
It was a cliffhanger.

Chris:
We made a decision.

Jeff:
I wonder what’s going to happen. We’re going to read the story of the movie. They’re going to have to listen later to stay with us after this segment. Oh, this is good. I know. Yes. It’s a mystery.

Chris:
Yes. So, but before we dive into that.

Jeff:
Yes. I’m going to read off several movie quotes. Yes. This is the game. And we’re going to see how fast Chris can name the movie it’s from. This is the movie quote race. I was just telling Jeff. In the last movie quote race, we had a couple of fans who beat you. Oh, did we? Yes.

Chris:
Well, you’re assuming.

Jeff:
Well, their message is on YouTube, so you’d have to call your listeners liars.

Chris:
Oh, really? Yeah. Okay.

Jeff:
Liars? Because you had a couple of them, remember last time, where you were slow to the answer? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we had a couple of people who got the one you missed, and they were ahead of you. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. All right.

Chris:
Well, hey, by the way, I always feel pressure on these, but not as much pressure as missing Bible

Jeff:
I know that was way worse. Way worse. Or when it’s like, is this a Justin Bieber song or a Bible verse? Right? Right. Like, come on. Right.

Chris:
Yeah. I get off easy because of my extensive knowledge of movies.

Jeff:
Yes. And I get off easy on the Bible stuff for the same reason. My extensive Bible knowledge.

Chris:
But we just established that you didn’t get off easy because you have more pressure.

Jeff:
Come on, Jeff. But I got the answers right. Stick with the illustration of the joke. Yeah. More pressure for you. I think you were imagining extraordinary. No, I’m joking. It is hard. Okay, here we go. Ready? So Desiree says, and I need you to weigh in on this one, Chris. Desiree says the listeners will get 1,000 points for every quote they beat you on.

Chris:
Okay, let me here’s my way. And that’s what I suggested. And you scoffed at me.

Jeff:
Well, 1000 points seems really lame. Yeah.

Chris:
Okay. All right. Well, we’re gonna make it 1500 1500.

Jeff:
I was gonna say how about 50,000 points? Wow. 50,000 points. Not as much as your game on Monday. Well, my game was Bible verses. This is just movies. Okay. Okay. 50,000 points. Does that sound good? I will allow that. Okay. So if they beat you, they get 50,000 points. Okay. Okay. Here we go. Here we go. Per question. Here we go. Number one. Yes. Do these smiles seem fake? It doesn’t matter where they come from. Greatest Showman. Okay. The joy is real.

Chris:
The joy is real. He’s talking to the critic right outside, right outside.

Jeff:
So in the middle of that one, there’s potentially somebody could have gotten one.

Chris:
What are you talking about? I said it so fast.

Jeff:
In the middle, I said, do these smiles seem fake? It doesn’t matter where. And that’s when you said it. So somebody got the answer before. I said it twice. Okay. Yeah. I got all the way through. Does the, do these smiles seem fake where you say great showman? Oh, come on, man. I did. Okay. Snakes. Why did they have to be snakes?

Chris:
That’s the correct answer. Uh, I, uh, I can’t believe I tried to say temple of doom.

Jeff:
I almost said, you had them all. Indiana Jones. Okay. Life, uh, finds a way.

Chris:
Jurassic park.

Jeff:
Good one. See, you left the room, the door open just a little bit. Uh, go ahead. Make my day.

Chris:
Uh, sudden impact.

Jeff:
Okay. That’s it.

Chris:
It was easy. Okay. So it was life is finds a way. So those are easy.

Jeff:
After all tomorrow was another day. After all, tomorrow is another day. It’s one of the most famous movies in the history of cinema.

Chris:
Shawshank Redemption.

Jeff:
Well, let’s go for history. Historically, one of the greatest movies ever, according to the Oscar lists of greatest movies ever. Gone with the Wind. There you go. It is really? It is Gone with the Wind. No way. Yeah, take a minute. Hey, you know somebody just got 50,000 points out of that one. Yeah. Probably a third of our listeners. Here we go.

Chris:
By the way, I didn’t like Gone with the Wind, and I honestly only saw it once, and I was glad to be done with it, and I really didn’t love it, and I certainly don’t remember that line.

Jeff:
Okay. Well, there you go. My Precious. Lord of the Rings. What? There’s three Lord of the Rings.

Chris:
I don’t even know the titles.

Jeff:
Okay. I don’t know that I can give you that.

Chris:
Well, wait a minute.

Jeff:
If you’re going to… Those are three separate movies.

Chris:
Lord of the Rings, The Journey of the Ring.

Jeff:
What is it? OK, so we’re just going to say The Two Towers. That was it. Yep. The Two Towers. Yep. Two Towers. And then number seven. There’s a snake in my boot. Toy Story. So we get to the cartoons. We’re on that one. So two movies you didn’t care for were the two that you missed. Correct. Right. So you didn’t care for Gone with the Wind and then

Chris:
Right. Well, out of all fairness, I did get the category.

Jeff:
You knew that it was a Lord of the Rings. Yes. I got that very quickly. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we’ll get. And Gollum. I like that. Right. We’re going to give you 25,000 points. Oh, thanks, Jeff. Okay. Appreciate that. Well, I think there’s a very high likelihood that we have somebody out there that has 150,000 points on you. You think so? Yeah. Yeah. We could have somebody 350,000 points ahead of you. Well, every one of them had a little bit of a pause.

Chris:
Okay, fine. But, but, you know, people probably beat you on Monday on your Bible verse too.

Jeff:
I bet they didn’t. We’ll find out. We will find out. Okay. Okay. So we had a big decision to make. Yes. And now we’re going to get in trouble with Desiree because

Chris:
We have called the Audible and we are telling the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jeff:
Okay, there you go. So we were supposed to jump, after these angels visit Abraham and Sarah, we were supposed to jump on to Isaac’s birth. Yes. Which is really the more important story. Right. But this is really significant. And so we thought, hey, we’ll take a moment and And today we’ll do this one. So I’m not going to read the whole thing. You can find all of this story in Genesis chapter 18 and in Genesis chapter 19, but I’m just not going to read all, you know, 50 verses or whatever it is. Okay. So we’ll start it and then we’ll summarize the end. Here’s what it says. Then remember Abraham and Sarah feed these three guys. Right. And they say, you’re going to have a baby. Is anything too hard for the Lord? Then, the Bible says in verse 16 of chapter 18 of Genesis, then the men got up from their meal and looked out towards Sodom, and as they left, Abraham went with them to send them on their way. Should I hide my plan from Abraham? The Lord asked. For Abraham will certainly become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed through him. I have singled him out so that he will direct his sons and their families to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, and then I will do for Abraham all that I have promised. So the Lord told Abraham, I have heard a great outcry from Sodom and Gomorrah because their sin is so flagrant. I’m going down to see if their actions are as wicked as I have heard. If not, I want to know. The other men turned and headed towards Sodom, but the Lord remained with Abraham. Abraham approached him and said, Will you sweep away both the righteous and the wicked? Suppose you find fifty righteous people living there in the city. Will you still sweep it away and not spare it for their sakes? Surely you wouldn’t do such a thing, destroying the righteous along with the wicked. Why would you be treating the righteous and the wicked exactly the same? Surely you wouldn’t do that. Should not the judge of all the earth do what is right? Then the Lord replied, If I find fifty righteous people in Sodom, I’ll spare the entire city for their sake. Then Abraham spoke again, since I’ve begun, let me speak further to my Lord, even though I’m but dust and ashes. Suppose there are only 45 righteous people rather than 50. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five? The Lord said, I will not destroy it if I find 45 righteous people there. Then Abraham pressed his request further. Suppose there are only 40. The Lord replied, I’ll not destroy it for sake of 40. Please don’t be angry, my Lord. Abraham pleaded, let me speak again. Suppose only 30 righteous people are found. The Lord replied, I will not destroy it if I find 30. Then Abraham said, since I’ve dared to speak to the Lord, let me continue. Suppose there are only 20. And the Lord replied, then I will not destroy it for the sake of 20. Finally, Abraham said, Lord, please do not be angry if I speak one more time. Suppose only 10 are found there. The Lord replied, then I will not destroy it for the sake of 10. When the Lord had finished his conversation with Abraham, he went on his way, and Abraham returned to his tent. And then the Bible says that those two angels went down to the entrance of the city of Sodom. Lot was sitting there.

Chris:
Right. And so the end of the story is they did not find one righteous person in Sodom, right?

Jeff:
Well, righteous Lot, he lived in Sodom. He was in Sodom at the time? Yeah, yeah. Him and his two daughters and his wife. His two daughters were engaged. So let’s cover that part of it real quick. Lot is Abraham’s nephew.

Chris:
I was thinking of the verse that said when he pitched his tent towards Sodom, that’s when they split up, right?

Jeff:
That’s right. So that’s what I was getting to say. So we’ve referenced Lot one time, but only briefly. So Lot is Abraham’s nephew. They, and there’s many other stories in Genesis we haven’t covered about Abraham and Lot, they became extremely profitable, they became extraordinarily wealthy, and to the point where Lot’s sheep and goats and cattle and camels, their shepherds, were butting up against Abraham’s sheep and camels and all that, and they were starting to have trouble. And so it was just too big of an operation, too hard. And so Abraham standing, God had already said to Abraham, every place that your foot falls, I’m gonna give to you in the land of Canaan. And so Abraham turns to Lot and said, hey, it’s all mine, but wherever you wanna go, you go that way, I’ll go the opposite direction, which is incredibly generous. And so the Bible says that Lot looked towards the area of Sodom and Gomorrah and realized that that’s really, it was a well-watered plain that Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Bible says he pitched his tent towards Sodom. Sodom was a wicked city, but he just started moving in that direction. The next time we come across Lot is in verse 19, I mean, chapter 19, verse 1, and it says, Lot was sitting at the gates. He was the leader in Sodom at that point, right? So he started, he just pitched his tent that direction, next thing you know, he’s living there, which happens, you know, as soon as you start paying attention to a thing, you tend to gravitate that way. Um, you ever watch a kid riding a bicycle when he’s first learning how to ride a bicycle, right? And all of a sudden he sees the mailbox and goes right at the mailbox. He sees, sees the back end of your car goes right at the back of the car. You tend to go the direction that you’re looking. And that’s what happened to Sodom started looking or a lot started looking that way and went there. So anyways, so lot is there, and this is Abraham’s concern. for Sodom, going, hey, wait a minute, Lot’s there, he’s a righteous man, his wife, his daughters, two daughters, and the Bible says that they were engaged, so there’s six. Surely, in all the time that Lot’s been there, maybe he got four more people to follow God, and so he stops at 10. Too bad, if he’d stopped at five, maybe God wouldn’t have destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah at all. Right?

Chris:
Yeah, that’s interesting. And, you know, it’s just a tremendous conversation. And when you find yourself reading through this chapter, chapter 18, you may have a tendency to think that this is tedious. You know, he starts with 50, then goes down only 5 to 45, then down to 30, and then down to 20. And you’re like, why in the world would they continue to have this conversation? But, you know, it does demonstrate a lot about the character and nature of God, doesn’t it? About God’s patience, about God’s love, about, you know, God’s unwillingness that any should perish, right? And so God is, you know, just, He’s tested because anybody who tests you uh you know like this it reminds me of that everything reminds me of something in a movie or a sitcom but uh do you ever see the episode of the office where uh jim was saying to dwight uh do you think the apocalypse could happen in a week and he’d say yeah he’d say what about a month he’d say yeah do you remember that he’d say okay how about this hang under your hat six months. He’s like, yeah, I think that’s a reasonable time. And he’s like one year. And then finally Pam just gets up and walks off because they know that he’s just going to continue on. And Dwight’s just going to continue to answer the questions. And that’s exactly what this reminds me of because it’s like, It’s like he just continues to just press and press and press and press. And yet God doesn’t, it doesn’t say that God was angry. He said, please don’t be angry for me asking, but it doesn’t say that God, uh, you know, expressed any type of frustration. He just simply said, I will not, if there is righteous people there. So God’s, you know, God’s even in the old Testament, you know, when the, when it’s the God of wrath, God expressed his wrath towards sin. And yet even that God, because after all, God still feels the way about sin that He did in the Old Testament today.

Jeff:
I was going to say, He’s the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Chris:
He’s the same God. Yes, but the massive difference is God’s reaction to sin is massively different because of Jesus Christ, right?

Jeff:
So God’s reaction to our sin… Well, He poured out all that wrath on Christ, so nothing changed. Yes, yes, yes.

Chris:
So now currently in our day and age, God’s response to our sin is what I was trying to say, is God’s response to our sin is radically different. than let’s just say like Abraham or Lot or the sodomites in the city. For those that are in Christ. For those that are in Christ because Jesus paid it all. That’s correct. Yeah. So anyway, even, but even the God who, who immediately executed judgment for sin is, is completely demonstrating his mercy and patience.

Jeff:
Yeah. And, and so he, this demonstrates so many things. One, nothing’s off the table with regard to what we can talk to God about.

Chris:
That’s a really good point.

Jeff:
There’s a son right there. Yeah, so and God was extraordinarily patient So the question would be, was God changing his mind? I’m going to destroy the place. Or was it that God was changing Abraham’s mind? There’s a little bit of that. Had Abraham gone down to five, would God have held his hand back? We don’t know, right? Because Abraham didn’t go to that point. Did God in his foreknowledge know that Abraham wouldn’t go there and there wasn’t 10 righteous people. But the Bible does say that this is Jesus, right? This is a Jesus moment that he keeps calling him the Lord. And the Lord’s the one who said, I’m disgusted by their wickedness. I’m going to go check it out for myself, and I’m going to wipe them out. So anyways, the two angels, we don’t read this part, but in chapter 19, the two angels that had left Jesus, they get down there ahead of time. They find Lot sitting at the gates, and Lot takes them home. And Lot goes, well, it’s getting dark, and this isn’t a good city to be out on the streets in the dark. There’s a strange man in town. Well, then the men of the city show up, start beating on Lot’s door and say, hey, send those two new guys out. We want to have sex with them. That’s literally what the Bible says, right? And they start beating on the door and Lot, crazy Lot in this moment is so concerned for these two angels that he says, no, no, no, I’ll send my daughters out to you. They’re virgins. Which is, how twisted is Lot at this point? He’s twisted where he used to have the values of his uncle Abraham. Now he’s sitting in the gates as a person of authority in Sodom, and he’s adopted their worldview. You know, the lack of value in a human. And so he’s willing to give his daughters to these wicked men, but they don’t want them. They say instead they want the angels. He gives those two men that are with him.

Chris:
What they perceived as men. Right. Right? Most likely. And, you know, it’s crazy to read a couple sentences and try to imagine ourselves there. Maybe Lott was trying to justify saying, I will do whatever it takes as long as this atrocity does not take place, you just can’t have these men. Maybe he feared, he’s like, Hey, I know these men, you know, they’re, they’re busting down the door. This is going to happen, right? This is going to happen. And this is, this is going to be the end of me if this happens. So he offers the most atrocious thing, right? He’s like, I’ll do whatever it takes. I’m sure he didn’t want to do it, but you’re right. I mean, the idea that he would say it. Yeah. I’d rather just say, yeah,

Jeff:
Lord save me kill us all or kill us all kill us all whatever whatever you’re gonna do, but no I’m not gonna do this and instead the so the angels then go stand back right and They reached out. They pull out in the house. They bold the door. They blind all the men and So now the men can’t find their way, they stumble around, and they finally leave. That’s what the angels do. And so then the angels turn around a lot and say, hey, do you have any other relatives here? Do you have any sons and daughters? Do you have any sons-in-laws? Listen, the city’s going to be destroyed. You need to go get all of your family, because you’re the only righteous people in the city. Go get all of your family, and righteous is not good people. Lot wasn’t a good guy at this point, but he was faithful to God. He had faith in the one God, the Creator. And so he said, we’re about to destroy the city completely. And then it literally says the outcry against this place is so great. It has reached the Lord. And then he sent us to destroy it. So Lot rushes out to tell his daughter’s fiance’s, Hey, hurry up. Let’s get out of the city. But they thought he was joking. And then the angel comes and says, okay, come on, you guys go. And it’s Lot, his wife, and his two daughters. That’s all. Even their boyfriends won’t come. Their fiance’s, nobody else would come with them. And the angels say, when we go out of the city, don’t look back. And of course Lot’s wife does so.

Chris:
Yeah. And then she takes, she turns into a pillar of salt, right? Which by the way, that’s an interesting choice by God. Yeah. Right. So she, she don’t look back. She does. What are we going to do? Well, let’s turn into a pillar of salt. So she does. And, um, and, uh, many people probably, this is a side, total, total sidebar here, complete departure. But I bet you, there’s probably a ton of people that don’t realize that the word sodomy Comes from this story from this behavior.

Jeff:
Yeah, this behavior.

Chris:
Yeah, the idea of you know, bring the men out so we can have sex with them It’s that whole action is was defined by this story right here, right? So she turns into a pillar of salt and And I can’t even imagine you know, how a lot must have felt, right? Because, you know, one, one act of disobedience, uh, you know, is, it’s a pretty harsh judgment in, in, um, you know, how am I supposed to say this? It seems like to me that’s an overreaction for disobedience. But then again, if you put yourself in the situation, God has already shown this unbelievable act of mercy by sending angels to say, the entire city is being destroyed. You shouldn’t be here. You know, you’re being corrupted by it, but we have gone out of our way to spare you and we are giving you this way out. So therefore it’s kind of like the commandment, don’t eat of the tree in the middle of the garden, right? Do not do this one thing. Do not look back. And so you would think that they would just be able to, in their unbelievable gratitude, not be able to do that. And I wonder if that’s symbolic of like looking back on not rejecting sin, or not rejecting things that are bad for you, or still wanting or missing, you know, the things that you used to do kind of thing. The good old days. The good old days. There’s a sermon in there somewhere, isn’t there?

Jeff:
Absolutely. Well, so the Bible said that God was having mercy. Abraham had asked God to have mercy on Lot and on the righteous in the city. And so God was giving the, the angels gave Lot the ability or the opportunity to go and try to rescue anybody who might be righteous. Are your sons-in-laws? Are your, do you have any sons here? Anybody. And so Lot, his wife, his two daughters, that’s it. There’s only four of them. After all that time, there’s only four. What a waste. That’s such a shame. He didn’t go, and when Christians enter into, or followers of God enter into the places of darkness, we should be transforming those places. Our presence doesn’t do that. It’s the Word of God and the power of God demonstrated that make changes, right, in dark places. But Lot and his family adopted the culture So they were the only righteous ones. They were the only ones following God, but she looked back, which kind of shows where her heart was. And I think in that, in that instance, and her heart was not with the place God was taking her to and with God instead, her heart was still with where she had been. Right. And so there’s a note here about this and it says, Lot’s wife turned back to look at the smoldering city of Sodom, clinging to the past. She was unwilling to turn completely away. Are you looking back longingly at sin while trying to move forward with God? You can’t make progress with God as long as you’re holding on to pieces of your old life. Jesus said it this way in Matthew 6, 24, no one can serve two masters. Right? That’s it. It showed that she wasn’t righteous. Lot, his two daughters, were. She was not. Right? That was the issue. It caused horrible destruction. Let me say this, though, because people are going to want to go jump on this and go, oh, it was the sodomy that wiped them out. That was the sin. It was one of the sins, but did you know, and I was going to ask you this, but I’m not going to put you on the hook. Do you know what the sins of Sodom were according to the Bible?

Chris:
The sins of Sodom, according to the Bible, no.

Jeff:
I don’t think I do. You have this. Here’s what it says in Ezekiel. In Ezekiel 16, verse 49, it says, Sodom’s sins were pride, gluttony, and laziness while the poor and needy suffered outside her door. She was proud and committed detestable sins, so I wiped her out as you’ve seen. So the detestable sins would be the Sodomy. Right. But he names that last. and says it’s pride, gluttony, laziness, and not taking care of the poor and needy. Isn’t that amazing?

Chris:
So was that your goal to stump the Bible guy?

Jeff:
I didn’t want to, I didn’t want to put you on the thing there. I was amazed by that because I always was under the impression it was only the homosexual practices, but it wasn’t. It was this whole culture of self-centeredness, ignoring the poor, just pleasuring myself. It was the modern version of Vegas, essentially, right? Pure pleasure and hedonism. no attention to the things that really matter in life. And so that eventually spirals down into, you know, finally these detestable acts, as the book of Ezekiel says.

Chris:
Yeah. You know, now that you mentioned it, I’m not sure I could have picked out Ezekiel as that passage. Now that you mentioned it, as soon as you said, like, you know, the sins, I’m thinking, wait a minute. I’ve recently read through Genesis and I’m thinking, they don’t list any other sins. But then to be in Ezekiel, oh yeah, I think I now remember that in Bible college, I remember one of my professors talking about that, stumping the class. And I think that there were a bunch of pastor’s kids in that class and they got it.

Jeff:
You know, but, but I remember thinking the first time I, so I had never seen that until the first time I read through Ezekiel, probably, I don’t know, 30 years ago. I was like, what? Cause I thought I knew, you know, I was so judgmental towards one certain behavior and God had all these reasons. Yeah. Interesting.

Chris:
Yeah. Well, Hey, that is, that is a great topic. I am really glad we included that. Aren’t you?

Jeff:
Yeah. It was great. I’m glad we, I hate that it happened, but I think it’s an important event that we need to cover. That’s right.

Chris:
Yeah. Okay. So hopefully we will see you next time on the Bible guys.