Transcription

Connor:
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Chris:
Hey everybody, welcome to the Bible Guys. My name is Chris.

Quin:
And I’m Quinn.

Chris:
And we today are the Bible Guys because Jeff is out. And by the way, last week I was out, which is two weeks in a row where you’re going to only get one of us. But however, this week is kind of fun because I have Quinn today and somebody different tomorrow. And then I think you’re coming back on what, Thursday? I’ll be back on Thursday. Yeah. And so that’s fun. We’re going to bounce around. And these are staff members of the church that we work at, which is Heritage Church.

Quin:
Yeah.

Chris:
Yeah, pretty cool.

Quin:
And I’m the new guy, so that’ll be fun. Yeah.

Chris:
And you’ve been on staff at Heritage how long?

Quin:
Since the end of February. So about three and a half months, four months. Yeah. And what do you do? I’m the Connections Director. I oversee HC groups, our Connect classes, our Connect Growth Serve Share class, 101, 201, 301, 401. I also oversee young adults and a lot of our Connect events that we do, like Sisterhood.

Chris:
Yeah, and if anybody does not attend Heritage, they’re bored out of their mind in that explanation. Right? Yeah, what does that mean? Yeah, what does that even mean? That’s a lot of things. Sorry about that, fellas. Hey, listen, we have been given a show sheet from Desiree, and today is all about Joseph forgiving his brothers after his father passes away. So, in light of that, she decided to pose a question that has nothing to do with the topic. So here it is. It is a Quinn is the new guy on campus. So here’s today’s question. If the office meeting our workplace, or a reality TV show, which cast member would you be the comic relief, the drama queen, or the undercover boss?

Quin:
Which cast member would I be? Our office here at heritage was a TV show.

Chris:
Which role would you play?

Quin:
Oh, I could play them all. I’m a man of many hats. The drama queen? Probably not. The comedy relief, probably most of the time. I’ve always been a funny guy. We have this argument, this friendly disagreement in my family of who’s the funniest. I think it’s the two-year-old, but my wife thinks it’s her. I think it’s me. The seven-year-old thinks it’s him, but probably the comedy relief. No, you’re a pretty funny guy.

Chris:
Now wait a minute, you think it’s you? You think it’s you, but nobody else thinks it’s you? That’s probably a good sign.

Quin:
Me and the two-year-old are right there. He does some pretty wild things. He bounces back a lot quicker than I can. I can’t run into walls anymore like he does.

Chris:
Okay, yeah, well that’s true. You’re a little bit older. So you’d be the comic relief is what you’re saying? I think so, yeah. Okay, all right. You know what? I don’t really know what I would be. In the past I could have done comic relief. I could probably still do that today. Drama queen? I don’t think so. I mean, yeah, I’ve been a part of drama before, but there are drama queens, I think, as a person who revels in drama, right? They’re always around drama.

Quin:
There’s always something.

Chris:
That’s definitely not me. I avoid it at all costs. But I would definitely like to say I love the idea of undercover boss. So I’m going to choose that one, even if it’s not true.

Quin:
That was a great show.

Chris:
Yeah. It was a great show. But like the idea that like, I think I’ve done that before. I remember one time I was hired at a really big church down the street and, uh, I was one of their pastors and nobody on the staff knew it. And I was checking my kids into, um, you know, into the, uh, kids program. And, uh, I was giving the worker a hard time and then saying some inside information. And the entire time I just never told them that I was the new pastor on staff. Right. So I did that. I loved it. And so I think I’d like to walk around undercover and see how the office really is.

Quin:
I think I could do that.

Chris:
Yeah, that’d be great. I read a story one time about a pastor, and you probably read this on the internet, where a pastor dressed up like a homeless man.

Quin:
Yes. Do you remember that? He sat outside on his first Sunday, saw how people treated him, right? Yes. As they were coming in. Yes.

Chris:
Yeah, I’ve read that. And then he walked in from the back door and then he walked straight down the middle aisle and then got up and said, Hey, my name is so-and-so. I’m your new pastor. And then actually talked about the good and the bad of what he experienced.

Quin:
and who was kind to him and who wouldn’t even look at him.

Chris:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s pretty amazing. So that’s an undercover boss pastor right there.

Quin:
You wouldn’t want to be that one person who was rude to the homeless person and then you’re slumping in your seat as the pastor gets up. Right, right, right. Be kind to people. There you go. Point of the day.

Chris:
Yeah. Okay. So, by the way, that reminds me of the scene from Liar Liar with Jim Carrey, where he can’t tell a lie and the guy says, can you spare some spare change? And he says, yes. And then he walks faster and he says, will you give it to me?

SPEAKER_01:
And he goes, no. And he goes, why? He goes, because I believe you will buy booze with it. I just want to get from my car to work without being confronted by the Western decay of society. Oh, anyway.

Chris:
Just airing it all out on the Bible Guys. That’s a terrible, terrible scene. Okay. So, hey, we’re going to move on because we are continuing. Actually, we’re wrapping up our last sort of segment of Joseph’s story. Right. Joseph’s story covers a big chunk of Genesis.

Quin:
Yeah, we’re finishing Genesis today.

Chris:
Yeah, yeah, we’re finishing, wrapping up all of Genesis, finishing with Joseph. And just as a recap before Quinn reads the verses, is that, you know, Joseph started out, you know, one of the youngest, actually he was the youngest at the time, of his brothers. He had a dream that his brothers and his mother and his father would bow down to him. His brothers got jealous, and they sold him into slavery. And they were going to kill him, but they sold him into slavery. He goes down to Egypt. He finds favor with the guard in prison. Everything that he touched prospered. God was with him. He was faithful. Eventually, he makes it to Pharaoh’s – or not Pharaoh, but the governor, Potiphar. And he was under Potiphar’s rule. And he had so much favor that Potiphar made him first in command in his house, second in command under him. And then he’d get wrongfully accused, he’d get thrown in jail, forgotten for years. You know, he had an incident with a baker and a cupbearer. And then finally, after years, seven years, just being forgotten and abandoned in prison, the Pharaoh has a dream. And the cupbearer remembers one time years ago, there was this guy in prison. So they call for Joseph. He interprets Pharaoh’s dream. And to everyone’s delight, you know, he makes Joseph, and especially to Joseph’s delight, he makes him second in command of all of Egypt. They go through seven years of plenty, seven years of famine, and finally his brothers come before him and bow down. And then, and eventually there’s a, I mean, there’s just a whole big long story. And then Joseph finally reveals himself to his brothers. And he had the position, he was in the position to kill them. Right. Or to punish them at least. Right. But he didn’t.

Quin:
Or at least turn him away and say, no, I’m not gonna help you. He’s never there for food.

Chris:
Yeah, he could have done anything, right? But instead he showed them with grace and kindness and mercy. And then he moved Jacob down to Egypt. And so all of the nation is now sort of transferred from Israel down to Egypt. And this is by the way, where we see eventually hundreds of years later, the nation of Israel is gonna grow. In Egypt and then they’re gonna eventually get enslaved and Moses is gonna have to deliver them But anyway before right now Jacob blesses Pharaoh. We didn’t read that but but that’s that’s in there we’re skipping over that part, but he blesses Pharaoh and and And and and Jacob basically lives out his days, but then Jacob passes away, right? And this is where we pick up today

Quin:
Yep, so let’s read Genesis 50, starting in verse 14. After burying Jacob, Joseph returned to Egypt with his brothers and all who had accompanied him to his father’s burial. But now that their father was dead, Joseph’s brothers became fearful. Now Joseph will show his anger and pay us back for all the wrong we did to him, they said. So they sent this message to Joseph. Before your father died, he instructed us to say to you, please forgive your brothers for the great wrong they did to you for their sin. in treating you so cruelly, so we the servants of the God of your father beg you to forgive our sin.” When Joseph received the message, he broke down and wept. Then his brothers came and threw themselves down before Joseph. Look, we are your slaves, they said. But Joseph replied, don’t be afraid of me. Am I God that I can punish you? You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people. No, don’t be afraid. I will continue to take care of you and your children. So he reassured them by speaking kindly to them. Wow. Yeah. These are people that were trying to kill him years earlier.

Chris:
Oh yeah, for sure. And, uh, and they, and they just realized, you know, uh, Joseph wouldn’t harm them for the sake of, you know, his father. That’s what they were thinking. And then now that the father’s gone, they’re like, Joseph is, is now free because dad’s gone. There’s nobody to protect us. And, uh, and yeah, so Joseph actually extends forgiveness twice, doesn’t he?

Quin:
Yeah. I mean, it’s peppered all throughout Joseph’s story. You know, he forgives his brothers. I’m assuming he forgives Potiphar, he probably forgives the guy, the cupbearer, who says he’s going to come get him out of prison after he interprets the dream and he doesn’t. And so Joseph’s story is just peppered with forgiveness, even in a few verses, a few chapters earlier in verse… In chapter 45, it says, don’t be upset, don’t be angry with yourselves for selling me into slavery. It was God who sent me to you. And then in verse 15, then Joseph kissed his brothers and wept over them. And then he became talking freely. That’s when he first revealed himself. So even a few chapters earlier, he’s forgiven them. So he already in his heart forgave them. So they’re thinking, oh, maybe something else came up or maybe he’s gonna treat us the way we would treat him. But he’s saying, I already forgave a few chapters earlier. I don’t have to do that again, which I just think is so cool.

Chris:
You know, something has always bothered me about the story of Joseph. I’m just confessing here. And that is the man doesn’t seem to have any weakness whatsoever. He seems like an unattainable person to me. And a lot of the Old Testament characters, they’re very human, right? So we know Noah screws up big time. We know David screws up big time and all of that. Not only did David sin big time, but David even wrestles with his own emotions. David gets angry with God. He gets frustrated. He worries about his enemies. He expresses all of his humanness on paper. It’s recorded in scripture. And Joseph shows no sign of weakness whatsoever. And I don’t know, to be honest with you, I’m just confessing here, but I don’t know if it’s because you know, Genesis tells this story in such broad strokes that like, it doesn’t really allow time to dig into the nuances of Joseph’s feelings because it really doesn’t talk about, you know, Joseph was frustrated. He was, he was alone. He, you know, he, he tried to be patient. He pondered these things in his heart. Like it gives no indication whatsoever about how he’s feeling. The only thing we, At least, I think this is true. I’m pretty sure this is true. The only indication that we’re given are the things that he says, right? And he says the perfect thing every time.

Quin:
Well, I think if you had to nitpick, right, at the very beginning when he tells his dreams, it could almost come off a little prideful. Like, you’re gonna bow down in front of me and the dad gets upset, and then that’s it. That’s the last time you hear something negative about Joseph. And then he has to grow up real fast, being in the pit, being sold to slavery, being wrongfully done by Potiphar, and then in the prison, and he ends up serving so well and loving so well in the prison that they elevate him. And so, I mean, yeah, I mean, almost perfect, right?

Chris:
Yeah, well, you know, I know that I’ve heard sermons about Joseph my whole life and, well, my whole Christian life, and I’ve definitely heard that angle, which is, you know, bragging, prideful, things like that. But here’s what’s interesting. I’m not normally a person to give somebody the benefit of the doubt. You know, like Jeff always gives the benefit of the doubt to the Pharisees, and I’m like, no, the Pharisees were terrible, right? But with Joseph, it never says he was prideful or boasting or bragging. So could it be, and I’m just throwing this out there, devil’s advocate, right? Or, hang on, angel’s advocate. I’m going to do angel’s advocate. Okay.

Quin:
I like that better.

Chris:
Yeah. So could it be that Joseph was just 17 years old and he just didn’t know any better? Right. Right. So maybe he didn’t really know that, Joseph, this isn’t something you should do. You should not, you know, tell this dream because they’re going to get jealous.

Quin:
You know, he wore his coat of many colors. He didn’t know that was going to tick him off, that was going to frustrate him. And that was ultimately the thing that set him over the top.

Chris:
So could it be that we all get to heaven and we’re all wrong? Maybe he wasn’t prideful at all. Maybe he was young and maybe… Just a kid who didn’t know what he was doing. Yeah, right. Like when he wore his coat of many colors, I’ve heard sermons that said, oh, he walked around flaunting that coat. It doesn’t say that. It just says he wore it. And the thing that it does say is it says that Joseph was Jacob’s favorite.

Quin:
Right.

Chris:
So the fault lies in Jacob, right? The favoritism, the coat of many colors, the babying, right? That’s the indication of the scriptures. But it never says that Joseph had any pride at all. And again, do I believe he was probably prideful? Probably. Because any person who’s babied like that and favored like that, I mean, it’d be a miracle if he wasn’t.

Quin:
And we know he’s not perfect, right? Jesus was the only one who was perfect. So there had to be something wrong with him. But you’re right. It’s amazing how he was able to forgive. He was able to serve God through it all. And I think forgiveness, this is a great topic for me because this is something I’ve struggled with. I’ve never really been a hothead. I’ve never been addicted to drugs. I’ve never wanted to put my fist through a wall. So I’ve got friends who struggle with things that I don’t. But forgiveness is something I’ve struggled with a lot over the years. When I was eight years old, My mom left. My mom and dad got a divorce and mom left and my truck driver dad had to figure out how to raise me and my two little sisters. Wow. And so when I started struggling and I didn’t see my mom for a few years and I ended up getting older and forgiving her and now she’s a Christian and we’re friends, which is great. But, uh, there was a few years where I really hated my mom and I struggled with hatred and I struggled with forgiveness and I blamed my mom for all the things I was going through. for the drinking, for the porn addiction, for the overeating, for all these things in my life. I’m like, well, it’s my mom’s fault. She never would have left. And you don’t see any of that with Joseph. He’s not saying, well, I’m in prison because of, you know, Potiphar’s wife lied and my brothers did this. He’s not blaming anyone. He’s just serving God. and being faithful. And I think for me, reading stories like Joseph and reading how he forgave and how Jesus forgave, that’s really helped me on my journey of being able to forgive my mom and know that, you know, I have free will. When I made those decisions in high school, yeah, my mom didn’t make it easy on me, but it wasn’t her fault. She didn’t force those things into my body. She didn’t force me to make the decisions I was making. And so if you’re listening and you’re struggling with forgiveness, one of the things I would say is, Get close to Jesus and stay close to Jesus and let him help you in that We can do all things through Christ who gives us strength and when Paul said that he said it from prison He wasn’t saying we can do all things like you could go out there and be an NBA player because you and I can’t do that but we can forgive people when we’re close to Jesus because he gives us the strength to do that because if Joseph can endure this and in Paul can endure prison and Joseph entered prison, surely we can forgive. And so things like that, reading the Bible, being in the scriptures, being close to Jesus, have really helped me realize, like, I can forgive. And then also it talks about Matthew. I think I’ve got the scripture written down. Jesus says, if you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. If you refuse to forgive others, your father will not forgive your sins. And so obviously Joseph was before Jesus, but he knew God. He knew God’s heart. So he knows, well, God’s forgiven me and he’s going to forgive me and he loves me. And so surely I can, I can forgive other people. And so it’s almost like he knew the end of the story. It’s like he knew if I was faithful to God, God’s going to be faithful to me, which is pretty cool to think about.

Chris:
Yeah, and let’s be really clear, the context of that scripture doesn’t, it isn’t talking about a non-entrance into heaven, right? What he’s really saying is it’s the posture of the heart. He’s saying if you’re a person, right, in Matthew, what he’s saying is if your heart is not able to forgive others, then that means that you’re really not repentant of your own sins. So a posture of repentance, you know, if you’re completely unwilling to forgive others, that means that your heart is not in a position to repent and receive the love of Christ and the forgiveness of Christ, which means you need to deal with, you know, your own sins, right? And that’s the reason why the Bible says, you know, for all of us have sinned. There’s not one of us that are righteous, right?

Quin:
Right. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Chris:
That’s right. So I want to go ahead and tell you a quick story. So my brother Jim is a pastor in Texas, and he’s actually no longer a pastor, even though he’s working in ministry. He doesn’t hold that title anymore, but for years and years and years he was. And he was married to his now ex-wife, and she left him. And so here’s how it happened. He has a seven-year-old son and they go to the airport and she leans down and she looks over at her seven-year-old son and she says, mommy will be right back. And she gets on the plane and she never comes back. And she left my brother for somebody she met on the internet. So my brother, who currently at that time was a pastor in Texas, calls me up and realizes that on the way to the airport, she had left a note on the table. He goes back home, sees the note. By the time he got home, she was already gone. And it says, I’m leaving you. Goodbye. So he’s stuck with a seven-year-old son. And so he calls me up, just brokenhearted, couldn’t even talk. And so immediately I get on a plane from Atlanta. I was living in Atlanta at the time. I fly down to Texas and he goes to work. And while he’s at work, I am so angry at her. I’m so angry. And I’m spiteful and I’ve got the Youngstown, Ohio in me, right? So I decide to go ahead and purge his entire house of all things. her. So I go through and I didn’t even ask him, but literally everything that was hers, which she left everything behind, even her wedding dress. I put it all in bags. I took it over to Salvation Army, just donated it all, get rid of it all. He comes home and says, where’s all our stuff? And he said, I said, it’s gone. Even photos, they’re gone. Like literally there’s no evidence of her in the house. Okay. And so anyway, that was me being spiteful. And by the way, side note, she called years later, like two years later, and said, hey, I want to come and get my stuff. And it was to my pleasure that he said, Chris gave everything away. And she said, even my wedding dress? And he said, yes. And I was like, hee hee. But anyway, here’s what happened. So I purged his house. And he has not heard from her. And then all of a sudden the phone rings and it’s one of those phones on the wall. And I grab it and say, hello. And she pauses and says, Chris, this is, you know, she said her name and she said, is Jim there? And I wanted to say something in my anger, but I didn’t. And I said, hang on. And I cupped the phone. And I called him. And I said, Jim. And so Jim comes walking over. And I said, it’s your wife. And he grabbed the phone. And this is what he did, Quinn. He went like this. And he waited. And then he put the phone up to his ear. And he said her name and said, I want to let you know before you say anything else, I forgive you. Now, in my heart and in my mind, I thought to myself, there is no way that that’s true. There’s no godly way or ungodly way in God’s green earth. I think that he thinks he means it, but maybe he’s saying it because he knows he has to say it according to the Bible. Maybe as a pastor, he knows he’s commanded to forgive, but there is no way he means it. And I’m telling you from this day to this day, I’m telling you that that’s the only time in my life where I’ve seen a miraculous forgiving. He actually meant it. He completely forgiven her.

Quin:
The moment that she offended him to truly do that to truly let go of something you can’t do that on your own That’s a supernatural.

Chris:
That’s a supernatural thing The Holy Spirit comes upon you and he helps you and equips you to do that And by the way, I know that there are people listening who are probably going through a nasty breakup or divorce, right? Or maybe you’ve been a part of one Let me just say this one last thing because it’s one of the most impressive things I’ve ever heard He never once bad-mouthed her to his son, and he never told him the truth. He was seven years old, and it wasn’t until he was 25 where he actually found out what his mom did. And he called up his dad and said, Dad, is it true that this is what mom did? And he said, yes, son. And he said, and you never once spoke a bad word about her. You never once told me what she did. And my brother said, it’s because I didn’t want your relationship with her to be affected. He said, so I just wanted you to love her and not be angry with her like I was.

Quin:
Well, I looked up the definition of forgiveness in Merriam-Webster’s and it says to cease and the feel of resentment against, to give up resentment or claim to, to acquittal. And so I think when you truly forgive, it’s not that you forget, but it’s almost like the hurt and the ceasing of resentment goes away and the anger goes away. And so forgiving isn’t always forgetting. Like, I don’t think I’ll ever forget what my mom did. Right. He’ll probably never forget what his mom did. But you look at that person different. I look at my mom now with love and with kindness. And I think Christ did that. And I wouldn’t. There’s not the hurt and the resentment there that was there for a long time. And I think that’s what true forgiveness is. There’s a lot of people be like, oh, yeah, I forgive you. And then that person hurts them again. And then all this old stuff in this past is. Yeah. And I had a counselor back in Washington, we just moved from Washington, and I had a therapist I would meet with, and she helped me realize that I was still holding things on. Even just a few years ago, where pastors were not perfect, right? Even just a few years ago, I’m still holding on to things my mom did that when she says something dumb or she says something to hurt me, it hurts me extra because I didn’t truly forgive what she did years ago. And so instead of just forgiving the new offense like I should, now I’m trying to re-forgive all this old stuff again and she helped me realize, you need to let this go for real and completely because forgiveness, it’s not so much for the other person, it’s for me. I’m harming myself when I choose not to forgive.

Chris:
Yeah, that’s right. And people think that they’re punishing the other person by hanging on to bitterness. But Louis Smeed says, you know, I forgave to set a prisoner free only to discover that the prisoner was myself. Wow. Right. So we’re the only ones in prison, which is the reason why forgiveness has nothing to do with the other person. It’s for us, because Jesus knows that it’s for our benefit to release bitterness and anger and hatred, which is the reason why forgiveness is not an option. The bad news is, if you’re a follower of Christ, guess what? You’re commanded to forgive. Now, you’re not commanded to reconcile. It’s very biblical to be able to say, if a person is toxic or dangerous, it is very biblical and okay to say, I forgive you, I just don’t want anything else to do with you, if that’s what is necessary, right? So you don’t have to reconcile, although reconciliation is great. But guess what? You have to forgive. And it’s not because of the other person. They don’t deserve it, probably, right? They didn’t earn it. They didn’t ask for it. And they may not even receive it. And they may reject it, but it doesn’t matter. Because that’s why Christ says, if someone offends you, you go to them and make it right. He doesn’t say if you offend them. He says if somebody does you wrong,

Quin:
You go to them. First just the two of you, then if they won’t listen, you take a brother. Yes. It’s a proper way of going about that.

Chris:
Yes, which means regardless of whose fault, that’s really not the focus. The focus is you are commanded to forgive. And it’s because Jesus wants our burden to be light. Right. He says, come to me, all you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I’ll give you rest. He said, cast your cares upon me, right? Because I care for you. Because I care for you. And so God asks us to go through forgiveness. And by the way, one last thing I’ll say is this, is that forgiveness is really releasing a debt.

Quin:
Right.

Chris:
It’s saying, you don’t owe me anything anymore. You don’t owe me an explanation. You don’t owe me an apology. You have a debt. There’s a debt. There’s a deficit. But I’m now going to cancel that debt because Jesus paid the debt on the cross.

Quin:
Whether that person that wronged you ever asked for forgiveness or not. Whether they ever come back and do anything kind or not. It’s up to us to choose to forgive. And that was the last thing I wrote down is there’s freedom in true forgiveness.

Chris:
That’s right. That’s awesome. Well, hey, that’s a great place to end and we will see you next time on The Bible Guys.