Transcription

Connor
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Chris
Good morning everybody.

Jeff
Okay, so Jeff, just do the best you can. People like you and you’re going to make a difference today. Yeah. If you just. Oh hi, how are you doing?

Chris
You’ve never had to do that in your life.

Jeff
Yeah. I was just getting ready for this episode. I didn’t want to, uh. Yeah. You know, don’t want to fail today.

Chris
Yeah. Okay. Well, so thank you for psyching myself up.

Jeff
This is so important. My pre-show routine.

Chris
Yes, yes. Okay. Hey, uh, so today we’re going to start with, uh, like taboo. You’re going to give Jeff, uh, clues so he can try to guess the word. It’s. Oh, it’s the word in bold. Okay, I can whoever. You’re not allowed to say any of the italicized words as your clues. Yes, just like so. So we were going to put the. For those who are watching, we’re going to put the italicized words on the screen uh, for the, you know, just so that people can see the words that I’m not allowed to say. Okay.

Jeff
Yeah, there’s a lot of words you’re not allowed to say, but in this game, there’s specific words you’re not allowed to say here.

Chris
I think everybody knows how to play taboo. Yeah. Yeah okay. Except for somebody watching in another country okay. There you go. Okay. Here we go. Ready? Yes. All right. Uh, here we go. Agape

Chris
means love. Boom, baby. There you go. I wasn’t about to say marriage, affection, adore or I or you. Oh, wow.

Jeff
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris
Okay. Yeah. I took a whole new route for that one.

Jeff
There you go.

Chris
We got it.

Jeff
That was easy, but we just talked about that.

Chris
Okay, here we go. Ready? Uh huh. Uh, I’m going to the chapel to attend a wedding. Wedding. Oh my goodness. Wow. Slaying.

Jeff
We’re nailing it.

Chris
I wasn’t allowed to say bride, groom, married vows or rings.

Jeff
Okay. Going to the chapel.

Chris
Okay. Oh, dude, how about this one?

Jeff
Ready? Okay, here we go.

Chris
Uh, post wedding, I attend a party.

Jeff
What’s the reception?

Chris
Yes.

Jeff
Really?

Chris
That’s it? Yes, I wasn’t allowed to say party celebration after. Which is why I said post. Oh, right. Right. Post dinner or dance?

Jeff
There you go. Post.

Chris
Very good. Okay. And then, um, okay. How about this one? When? At the beginning of a wedding, when people enter the. The fancy word for that is called

Jeff
the processional dude you almost said that one.

Chris
What do you mean?

Jeff
You said the. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

Chris
Music. Walk, bride ceremony or order. Okay.

Jeff
Very good.

Chris
Uh, see, the problem with, uh, Desiree trying to trick us with this is that she doesn’t realize we’re professional wedding people.

Jeff
That’s right, that’s right. Right. I’ve only done 10 million of these. Yes.

Chris
Right. Right, right. Okay, okay. Um, how about this one? Ready? Okay.

Jeff
Yes.

Chris
The people attending the reception are on a sheet of paper. And that paper is called the.

Jeff
Oh, my goodness, the guest list. Yes.

Chris
That’s it, I wasn’t allowed. There you go. I wasn’t allowed to say friends family tables, seating or invited.

Jeff
Okay, there you go. So guest list.

Chris
Dude, I nailed it.

Jeff
Yeah.

Chris
I’m so proud of me.

Jeff
There you go. Good job.

Chris
Like the Pharisee yesterday. Yeah. In our in our podcast.

Jeff
I’m proud of me. I’m so glad I’m not terrible like other people who play games.

Chris
That’s exactly what our podcast was yesterday. Yep, that’s right. So if you missed it, go online and watch it.

Jeff
That’s right. It’s fantastic.

Chris
Go binge it.

Jeff
So, um, I did a wedding one time, so I used to, you know, I’m a musician too, so I did a lot of weddings playing Processionals and yeah, whatever.

Chris
I sang at like 40 weddings before I ever did a wedding. Oh, really?

Jeff
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, uh, I was in a brass group one time, and I was the lead trumpet of this little brass quintet. I think we were supposed to play Pachelbel’s Canon as as the bride Walks Down. Um, so, you know, um, my part. Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. Right. That part of it. So when we when I get to that fanfare part. Because if I start womp womp womp, you know all that. So it layers. So it starts off slower and slower and then then it layers. And then finally there’s the high doo doo doo doo. And uh, as soon as I hit that is when she’s supposed to come down. Yeah, well, she got cold feet. She wouldn’t come down the aisle.

Chris
That’s hilarious.

Jeff
So then we. Hey Answer it. See who it is?

Chris
It’s it’s KB.

Jeff
Answer it, answer it. Let’s see.

Chris
Oh, man, I could have done it. That would have been awesome. You shut it off.

Jeff
Um, so anyways, uh, she wouldn’t come down the aisle. So then the, the guy that was leading, he was sitting next to me. He bumps me. And so we have to go back to it. Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. And then we probably went through that like 4 or 5 times. And finally her father starts walking down the aisle and just just holding her hand. Oh no.

Chris
Oh no. She betrothed. Yeah.

Jeff
He’s he’s pulling her to the altar once they got to like the middle. Then they started, you know, then she was okay. She was in she locks eyes with her. With her. The groom and she finally comes all the way down the thing. But when my when my wife, she was afraid of the crowd not not getting married. Right. It was. She was. She saw all those people and everybody turned to look at her. Yeah. And she panicked and wouldn’t go. Yeah.

Chris
Uh, my wife actually missed her cue and waited about five seconds to come around the corner. And so when when the cue and the music hit, she was supposed to come around the corner. She was on these steps. And, uh, come to find out, she was delayed. And for about a millisecond, I was like, what’s wrong? Did she abandon me? You know, but come to find out later on, it was the father of the bride, right? My father in law. Who who paused because he just always does his own thing. Right? Always. And he always goes. And he stopped her and he goes, hey, just let you know if you don’t want to do this, we can call it off. It’s not too late, you know, not that he didn’t like me. Yeah, yeah, but he’s just taking care of his girl, right? Yeah. And anyway. But but for about a millisecond, I was like, what’s wrong? You know?

Jeff
So there you go. Anyway, when you saw her, did you get teared up?

Chris
Oh, yeah. Did you cry? Yeah. Uh so I have four brothers and my brother. Sorry. I’m. I know we’re running out of time. I have four older brothers, and, uh, they all were married except for me and Tommy, who’s the middle, middle, middle one. So Tommy was making a joke. He had been dating Susan for, like, ten years, right. And not married. So he kept on saying, hey, after after tomorrow I’ll be the winner. Oh, right. Right. And then and then and then Susan said, oh, yeah, I’m the winner’s girlfriend. And everybody’s laughing, right? Right. So actually, when Liz came around the corner, I got all my all my brothers standing next to me, and I leaned over to Tommy and I said, hey, Tommy. I said, I’m the winner.

Jeff
Good for you. Yeah. Okay, so we are reading in Matthew chapter 19, uh, and in Mark chapter ten. Hey, we’re back in the parallels. That’s right. Right. So the parallel, if you’re just joining us on the podcast, we’re going through the 250 events of Jesus life in order. That’s chronological order. Uh, the gospels aren’t written that way entirely. And then we’re also doing it in parallel. There’s four gospels that tell the story of Jesus, and sometimes two writers or three writers write the same story. Right. And so we’re reading them from all the different sources and then looking for what are the the interesting elements that stand out in each one.

Chris
So because each author’s, uh, most of the time there’ll be different details. Yeah, yeah.

Jeff
Well, they had different reasons for writing, right. And they had a different audience that they were targeting. So they wrote different things. And so it’s really, uh, interesting to do this this way. So Matthew chapter 19, verse three, it says, Some Pharisees came and tried to trap him with this question. Should a man be allowed to divorce his wife for just any reason? Haven’t you read the scriptures? Jesus replied, they record from the beginning. God made them male and female. And he said, this explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one, since they are no longer two, but one let no one split apart what God has joined together. Then why did Moses say in the law that a man could give his wife a written notice of divorce and send her away? They asked her. Jesus replied Moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts, but is not what God had originally intended. And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery unless his wife has been unfaithful. And Jesus disciples then said to him, is this if this is the case, it’s better not to marry. Not everyone can accept this statement. Jesus said, only those whom God helps. Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made eunuchs by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can. And then in Mark chapter ten, verse two, it says, Some Pharisees came and tried to trap him with this question should a man be allowed to divorce his wife? Jesus answered them with a question what did Moses say in the law about divorce Well, he permitted it, they replied. He said, a man can give his wife a written notice of divorce and send her away. But Jesus responded. He wrote this commandment only as a concession to your hard hearts. But God made them male and female from the beginning of creation. This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one. Since they are no longer two, but one let no one split apart what God has joined together. Later, when he was alone with his disciples in the house, they brought up the subject again, and he told them, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries someone else, she commits adultery and he just leaves it at that. There it is. Wow

Chris
So we’re talking about divorce today?

Jeff
Yeah, we’re talking about a lot of things.

Chris
Yeah.

Jeff
Uh, Jesus said that God made them male and female from the very beginning. So there’s that whole issue in society, right?

Chris
Oh, in society. Yeah. Well, that’s, uh. Yeah, that’s, uh, sort of like hidden in there, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah. It’s a statement that, that you could definitely use to talk about that. So, uh, do we want to talk about that?

Jeff
Sure. Uh, the Bible says that God made male and female from the very beginning. Yeah. Those are the two options.

Chris
Hey. Ready? The end. The end. Yeah, yeah. That’s funny.

Jeff
Uh, so there’s that, that part of it. And then uh, he is highlighting their coming to Jesus, trying to trap him, remember, through this whole thing. They’re trying to trip him up. So, um, on this one, they bring a legal issue because they view marriage purely as a legal thing. And Jesus keeps pivoting everything away from law and back to the heart. Always. Jesus always taking it back to the heart and, um, to God’s original intent. So God’s original intent was never to law. God’s original intent was what’s best for humanity, that’s all. And you’ll really live the life you were meant to live if you choose to go God’s way. And they wanted to distill it just down to the legalities of things and um, make this less about the heart and more about just a contract that you can break or change or, you know, uh, sever. And so they’re trying to get Jesus to, to make a mistake because if he said if he agrees with them that it’s okay to get divorced, well, then, uh, he’s agreeing and they feel like what they just did is they pulled a lot of the power back on their side of this, this debate between Jesus and the Pharisees. Uh, if he disagrees with them, he’s going to make a lot of people mad, including Herod, who had just killed his cousin. Right. John the Baptist, um, because he was preaching against divorce. Right? Right right. And and so, um, it maybe they could get Jesus to make Herod mad, too, and they could get Herod to kill Jesus, like Herod killed John the Baptist. So there’s lots of motivations for bringing this issue up. And Jesus just threads the needle again, as he always does, as he always does.

Chris
Yeah, yeah. And that’s interesting. I remember hearing a, uh, I’m interested to hear what you think about this, um, about divorce. So, uh, so I heard it or I heard a message by a famous preacher a long time ago and, uh, probably about 25 years ago. And he said, I want to go on a on a limb. And I want to say that before I lay out what I’m about to say. He said, I want you to know that not a lot of people believe the way that I believe about marriage and divorce, of what I’m about to tell you. And so he said, if you take all the scriptures that talk about divorce and remarriage and you take them all together, right? He said, it’s really interesting because in one of the Gospels, uh, Jesus would say, uh, because, because, because he teaches about marriage and divorce and a couple of different times. This isn’t the only time. Right, right. That he teaches about it, right? That’s correct. So this is these are the two that are parallel about the time that he teaches right before he heads into Jerusalem. But he talks about it in other places as well. And he says that in one of the Gospels it says, oh you have the right to divorce if there’s adultery, he says. But in another part of one of the gospels, it says that if you, uh, get divorced, you just commit adultery, uh, or you commit adultery if you marry somebody else, period. And it doesn’t give the loophole. Yeah, it doesn’t give the loophole of if your wife or husband has been unfaithful

Jeff
These two passages, um, Matthew 19 and Mark 1019 says, uh, unless the wife has been unfaithful, um, you know, one of the spouses, the other one doesn’t, right. So even here. So even here.

Chris
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so so one gives the loophole. Yeah. And the other one doesn’t. That’s right. Right. And so and so uh, and he says and then he brought up another portion of the Scripture because he was looking at all of them. And, uh, and another parts of the gospel, it says, uh, they ask him a question, they say, Jesus, uh, is it okay for somebody to get divorced? And Jesus’s response to that question was simply this. He didn’t even answer the question. He just said, uh, when someone becomes one, they can never become UN one, right? Remember that? Yeah. So and so he says, okay, he goes and let’s take every single scripture, uh, together and let’s, let’s piece it together theologically and understand how God views marriage and divorce. And so his position, which, by the way, I’ve always thought that this is the only explanation that I have ever heard that made any sense, because one has a loophole, the other one doesn’t have a loophole. Uh, one says it’s, uh, committing adultery. The other one says, unless it’s this all these kind of things. And he says, why would Jesus answer a question, uh, and say about divorce and say, once a person gets, you know, to become one, they can never ever become UN one? And he says, here’s what I believe. Because, uh, marriage was created in perfection in the garden. Right. So think about it. So we are a part of an institution called marriage that was created in absolute perfection without sin. And so God’s intention for marriage in perfection was that once you became one with a person, you could never, ever become UN one. So his contention was, even today, right now, even if your spouse were to become un, you know, was unfaithful, you would go ahead and be allowed to divorce her and remarry somebody. But in Jesus’s eyes, he never gives the loophole for marriage or for remarriage. So think about every scripture that he talks about for remarriage, every scripture that he says about remarrying somebody. He says, if you remarry somebody while your spouse is still alive, you commit adultery, and he doesn’t give a loophole unless his wife has been unfaithful. And in that one, this one. Right. Yeah. But but but yet in other ones he just says, you know, you just commit adultery if they’re still alive. Sure. Right. So so he so his again, I’m not saying that that this person is right. I’m just saying he says in God’s eyes, theologically, he’s allowing you to get divorced. And yes people do get remarried, but in God’s eyes, you will never not be married to that person regardless.

Jeff
Oh, well, because you made a vow, right?

Chris
And and that’s what he’s saying. He’s saying, he’s saying like, yes, it’s going to be it’s going to be sin. So his contention was any remarriage while that person is alive, anyone for any reason whatsoever is sin. Period It’s adultery. But he says there’s grace on both sides of the equation. Yeah.

Jeff
So, um, I think that’s just ignoring the fact that there are multiple times when he says unless the other spouse has been unfaithful, that person is free, right?

Chris
So, so but he’s distinguishing what man has allowed because of hardened hearts, right?

Jeff
Yeah. So Jesus says, I tell you, yeah, I tell you this. Whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery unless his wife has been unfaithful. That’s Jesus. That’s not the law. That’s not Moses.

Chris
Yeah, yeah.

Jeff
So Jesus is is giving that same Jesus is the one that’s extending that, uh, exception. So, um, what we have to remember is so they’re coming to Jesus, I receive that Yeah. Yeah. So they’re coming to Jesus and trying to just make this purely legal. And he goes, okay, if you just want the law. God allowed Moses to give, uh, a process for divorce because humans have hard hearts. There’s a point where sometimes you get to a point of no return, right? And so the law gives ways for people to um, uh, end a marriage. Now, in that context, in that day, this really was a civil rights kind of an issue, because it was very easy in the days of Moses and in the time of the Old Testament, from man to throw a woman out.

Chris
Oh, for sure, it wasn’t because.

Jeff
Because the woman was property.

Chris
Yeah. For any reason. That’s so terrible. And so, so, um, in that case. And so that’s why Jesus is talking. He’s not endorsing that idea of a man can divorce his wife, but he doesn’t. What he’s saying is Moses gave this law that says, no, you have to give a written bill of divorcement there’s a legal document now, because what would happen is

Jeff
guys would kick the woman out and there’s no provision. There’s no Social Security. She can’t just go get another job. Right? So if she’s going to pay, oftentimes it would be, you know, a life of prostitution or something. If she’s going to ever have any money, any kind of way to take care of herself, it’d be a horrible thing. Or sometimes guys would kick him out some other guy would come around and be willing to marry her, and then he’d put his claim back out, not because he wanted her at home, because he didn’t want her to have anybody else. Right, and didn’t want her to have any life. He he wanted her life to be ruined. And so what what this bill of Divorcement did was it gave a complete and total release He couldn’t come back and continue to ruin her life. This is a it’s a civil rights issue that Moses made sure was in place there, that God had Moses put there to protect a woman who is divorced, that that’s where that came from. And divorce comes from the hardness of our hearts, one or the other, or both. Right. Um, and Jesus is acknowledging that that is in the broken world that we live in. That’s a thing. But then he’s saying just casual divorce for convenience, or because I don’t want to do the hard work of fixing this marriage or whatever, uh, that kind of thing. You’re right. You’re one. And God says, because you’re one, you can’t not become what you can’t become. UN one. Right?

Chris
Mhm.

Jeff
And so in that case then, um, when you do what you’re doing is you’re cheating on your own vows that, that that’s what you’re doing. Right. And that’s the adultery side of it. Now, the person who already committed adultery has set free the person who didn’t commit adultery. In this case, that’s what Jesus is trying to say. And I think that what you have to do is take all of the words, like you were saying earlier, all the words of divorce, and allow all of those words in the Bible to all apply.

Chris
Right?

Jeff
Right. And so it’s not that we can just pick and choose and go, well, this is what he meant. God meant for marriage to last forever, right?

Chris
Well, which is really clear.

Jeff
Yeah. And so I would say that there’s blessing in doing the hard work of keeping it together.

Chris
Now, let me ask you this question, this hard question. Is there ever a case where you would ever recommend a divorce?

Jeff
I never have, yeah. There’s been times where, um, I’ve recommended people escape. Um, people, um, you know, get to a safe place Uh, we’ve recommended safe houses and things like that to be able to get away from an abusive thing. Um, but I think that that is, that’s an individual decision of what’s best for that person. And, um, um, but I so. Yes, I’ve recommended. No, no, I’ve never recommended divorce. Yes. I’ve recommended many, many times Let’s get away. Let’s get safe. Um, right through physical abuse, that kind of thing.

Chris
Yeah.

Jeff
And then and then once that’s happened, now they have to work through the legal sides of things, right? It’s a legal because they’re physically separated now. They have to work through the legal side. I’m not a legal expert on that. So. Right. You know, I would always hope and pray for some kind of miracle resurrection or, uh, a restoration, that kind of thing. But, um.

Chris
Yeah, yeah, it’s a tough deal too, isn’t it? So, uh, you know, there’s so many, uh, interactions and conversations that we have with people all the time about, you know, being happy and, uh, you know, being miserable and, uh, you know, getting married too young. And we were just kids, and we didn’t know what we were doing. And, boy, we made a mistake, and we went to Vegas. Uh, yeah. You know, but there’s life after divorce, right?

Jeff
There’s forgiveness for every, uh, imperfection. For every sin that we commit. There’s forgiveness for those things. This isn’t a fatal, you know uh, mortal sin kind of a thing, right? Uh, all of these things are are forgiven and forgivable.

Chris
And that was that was the posture of the end of that sermon I was telling you about. Right? Yeah. There’s there’s there’s grace on both sides of the equation. Right? Right.

Jeff
Yeah. Um, it’s not perfect. And, uh, you’re free to make your choices, but you’re not free to choose the consequences. The consequences are, uh, there’s the huge majority of poverty in America is because of single parent homes. The huge majority of criminals in America come from single parent homes. Right? There’s all these things. A lot of the depression and struggle, uh, among teenagers. And gender identity issues often come from single parent homes. Not always, but a lot of times the numbers are just astronomical. So there are consequences. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t find a way through. Right? That, uh, I know my mom was a single parent, right? For a long time. And, and, uh, as she, uh, began to raise me to follow Jesus, things changed. God changed her life. God changed our life. We can go in a different direction. You can break that cycle. But the math is it’s really, really bad on everybody involved. Right Uh, everybody gets poorer in a divorce. Everybody struggles in relationships. Everybody gets cynical and fearful of of of, you know, long time commitments. Divorced families usually have lots of divorced kids. It just goes on and on and on. Right. So we want to push back and we want to do the hard work and we want to lean in, trust God’s grace in the difficulty and find a way to make it work and all those things. But our hard hearts allowed or made God or didn’t make God, but God made a law that would, you know, make a way out of those dangerous and bad situations. And so, uh, we just have to rely on God’s grace through it and then lean into him, uh, after and, and look for miracles that God would would rescue us from what the normal results are. Right? Yeah, that’s really it.

Chris
So, uh, all my brothers are divorced, except for one, uh, my, uh, a lot of my uncles went through divorce. Uh, my mom and dad got divorced, right? I mean, it’s like, uh, there’s so much divorce, you know, in my family. My brother Jimmy was on his. He’s on his third marriage. Yeah. And uh, and so it’s it’s one of those things where, I mean, I seem to be around it, uh, my whole life. And, uh. And by the way, just a side note for anybody on this podcast who actually knows me personally. Uh, I want to tell you that, uh, so my mom and dad got divorced when I was ten. My dad married my mom’s best friend. And then for about ten years, we were taught to hate her. Right. And do really bad things, like vandalize her house and her property and things. Right. And then all of a sudden, my mom decides to forgive, and then they become best friends again. And now they vacationed together. They did Covid together, they did all these different things, and they were just all three hanging out. But then eventually she passes away And then now they’re in their 80s, right? I mean, she literally just died like a year and a half ago. So. So my dad has pretty much nobody left. My mom has been single since their divorce for the last 35 years or whatever it’s been. So now they’re together every day, they’re hanging out. They’re not going to get remarried, but it seems like they might as well have or they might as well. Right. And now the brand new thing that’s happening is they’re going to church every Sunday. Wow. So now, you know, they introduce themselves as, uh, al and Jean Zarb because she never changed his name. Her name. Wow. Right. And so then and so and so they’re like, oh, Mr.. Mrs. Arbonne. Then they have to go, oh no no no no no, they’re we’re not married. But there’s these two cute little 80 year olds, right. Yeah. Who are now going to church, walking into church.

Jeff
As long as you breathe in breath, there’s still hope.

Chris
That’s right, that’s right, that’s what.

Jeff
That’s what Grace can do. So, um, uh, if you’re if you find yourself in a divorce situation, just understand God’s grace is there for you, right? And, um, uh, lean into him. That’s right. Lean in and decide that you’re going to cause Jesus talks about, uh, the whole idea of celibacy. Uh, is that that eunuch conversation he has at the very end. Right. And so some they choose not to, uh, marry for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, saying, okay, in my unmarried state, I’m going to really lean in to being able to serve God in a way I couldn’t do if I was married Right. And so that seems to be Jesus solution to the unmarried is really go after the things of God, uh, in your singleness. And so I’m not saying that it’s a blessing, but it may be a necessary evil in your life. Um, but now use this as an opportunity to really go after God’s kingdom, uh, and make a difference with your life. Um, uh, you know remember when Jesus taught us to pray, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Yeah. Just give your life to that. And, uh, it gives you a cause and purpose.

Chris
Yeah. That’s great. Well, that’s our time. And we will see you next time on The Bible Guys.