Transcription

Connor
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Jeff
All right, Chris so which is it going to be? Is it going to be fun or practical?

Chris
Well, apparently both, because that’s what the roll in said.

Jeff
Well, that’s who we are. Yeah. We’re just experts at fun and practical. Yeah, yeah.

Chris
That’s that’s hilarious.

Jeff
Goofy.

Chris
So today we have a social media minute.

Jeff
And those are the best. Yeah.

Chris
Because it’s going to go at least five minutes.

Jeff
That’s right. And and we love it when our, our listeners have nice things to say. They ask good questions sometimes. And this one today is nice words that people said.

Chris
And we like nice words.

Jeff
Yeah, yeah. We’re not going to read any of this stuff where these people are idiots, right? People go, these clowns don’t know what they’re talking about.

Chris
Do we really have those?

Jeff
No.

Chris
We don’t really. No we don’t. Good, good.

Jeff
I’m glad. Every once in a while we’ll have somebody think we’re not. But for the most part, everybody’s nice.

Chris
Oh that’s great. Yeah, yeah. Nice people. So let me read part number one here. There’s only three. So here’s the first one. This is from Pat.

Jeff
Oh Pat.

Chris
Oh who says what a wonderful discussion. It truly helped to clarify things. I listened to you both daily and I’ve learned so much. I’m very happy you decided to do this podcast.

Jeff
Oh well, we are too.

Chris
Hey, that is really cool. I got to I got to tell you, this is this is a lot of work. It is. It’s not technically in our job description.

Jeff
It’s not.

Chris
And this is totally something that we just feel like we should do. And it’s extra sort of. And and it didn’t start out as actually any big intention. It started out as a supplement during Covid.

Jeff
Oh, it’s supposed to be like six weeks or something or eight weeks.

Chris
That was it was eight weeks. And I think that one of the coolest things, even today, right now that happens to me on a on a semi-weekly basis, is I run into people who don’t even know who I am, right? They don’t even know, like they don’t know what Heritage Church is. Right? But they say, hey, we watch you online, right? And they only know us from the podcast. Yeah.

Jeff
Or they listen. I think we have.

Chris
Or.

Jeff
Listen twice as many people who listen than, than than watch. Yeah, yeah.

Chris
But anyway. But that happened to me in my city and my city.

Jeff
They recognize your voice.

Chris
Yeah. No, no, this person actually watched. Okay. But but I actually went to city and she goes, I have a really weird question. Are you Chris Arbor? And I said, oh, you must go to heritage because we have a campus in my city. And what she said was, I visited there one time and I’ve never went back. She goes, but I saw your banner, then started watching you. And that was like years ago. That’s like two years ago. Oh, wow. She’s like, but I listen to you every day. Oh, wow. So she doesn’t actually go to our church.

Jeff
Isn’t that neat? Yeah.

Chris
Yeah, that’s pretty cool.

Jeff
Well, hi, lady. And Emily City, right? Yeah. Right. Isn’t that.

Chris
Great? She she is a server at Lucky’s.

Jeff
Oh, yeah. Oh, I love Lucky’s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You should go to Lucky’s. Get some bread. Yeah, yeah. Steak. So here’s another one from Joe. And Joe says, love to start my day with these two. Happy to be part of this community, which is cool. Isn’t that fun? Yes. Yeah. Well, we love starting the day with you too, Joe. Yeah.

Chris
And I like the fact that he called it a community. A community.

Jeff
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s a there’s a lot of regulars who who write or post things, especially on the YouTube side. But hey, would you do us a favor if you’re listening on Spotify or Apple or one of those on the podcast platforms, leave a review. Give us five stars. Only five stars. That’s all we’re accepting right now is five stars. And then leave a nice review, because that does help build a little bit of community and people find out, you know, other people like these yahoos, maybe I’ll like them too.

Chris
And then Cliff says this great conversation about Jesus’s abilities coming from the Holy Spirit. Never thought about it this way. I always assumed it was because he was God. This changes how I think this impacts me. Amazing. Thanks for what you do. Impactful. Oh good.

Jeff
So somebody was actually listening, right?

Chris
Wow.

Jeff
Good job by.

Chris
The way I remember that conversation. Yeah. Yeah. So we were talking about the idea that Jesus was operating in the Holy Spirit. Well, this has been.

Jeff
Kind of a an ongoing thing with you and me going. Now, was this because he was a man or because he was God.

Chris
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeff
I think that’s a great.

Chris
Yeah, that’s a great conversation. Wow. Thank you Cliff.

Jeff
Yeah. How cool. That’s great. Well our our keep yawning today aren’t you. Yeah.

Chris
Well I got I got to tell you. So we record these things pretty early in the morning. Yeah. Sure. And then and so I got up at 6:00 in the morning or whatever I got up as and then you know, you know, had had coffee with my wife and all these things. And then I come in here and any low lighting event, you know, any, any environment that’s low lighting. Right. So anyway, I just yawn. Yeah. So a lot of times in the podcast you see me yawning. Yeah. Because we record early in the morning. It’s so.

Jeff
Funny. Yeah, yeah. It’s so funny. And I think you have this. You’re right. So just past the lights in front of us, it’s all kind of dark and black back there. Yeah. And it’s my calming demeanor. Yes. It’s my wonderful radio voice. Well, you.

Chris
Do have a.

Jeff
Voice. Chills you out. You feel so calm because you’re safe now, Chris. Yeah.

Chris
You’re safe.

Jeff
You’re. You’re with me.

Jeff
And you finally feel like you can let your guard down and rest.

Chris
It’s actually it’s actually immediately why I conceded to have you read all the scriptures. So by the way, this is for our regular listeners. There wasn’t really a decision. No. It was more like, hey, why don’t I read today? And then I just sort of spoke up one day and I said, you know what? You have such a great reading voice. Why don’t you just read the scriptures? Read that. And because I didn’t feel like pronouncing the weird names in the Bible. Right.

Jeff
So back when we were in the Old Testament and we’re looking at all these names, I don’t know how to say this.

Chris
And I was just like, I was like, you’re better at that. Plus, your voice is so much calmer, calming.

Jeff
Well thank you.

Chris
So why don’t you read?

Jeff
Well thank.

Chris
You. That’s why Jeff reads.

Jeff
Okay, well, speaking of which, we’re going to be reading. Jesus is going to tell the parable of the Lost Sheep, and then he’s going to talk about how do you treat somebody who is part of the church or Christians who get into sin? So it’s a really big deal. So we’re going to be reading from Matthew chapter, treat him.

Chris
How do you treat him?

Jeff
Yeah. Matthew chapter 18 today.

Chris
Hey everyone. If you’re listening on one of the audio platforms like Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or Spreaker, would you do us a favor? Would you take just a moment and follow us? Because I’m worth following and Jeff is along with me, so, you know, you could follow him, I guess too, by proxy, but or just share it, you know, because people need to be introduced to the Bible guy and his companion named Jeff.

Jeff
So in Matthew 1812 through 14 he says, if a man has a hundred sheep and one of them wanders away, what will he do? Won’t he leave the 99 others on the hills and go out to search for the one that’s lost? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he will rejoice over it more than over the 99 that didn’t wander away in the same way it is, is not my Heavenly Father’s will that even one of these little ones should perish. It is not my Heavenly Father’s will that even one of these little ones should perish. And then in verse 15 he says, if another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the offense. If the other person listens and confesses it, you’ve won that person back. But if you are unsuccessful, take 1 or 2 others with you and go back again so that everyone so that everything you say may be confirmed by 2 or 3 witnesses. If the person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. Then if he or she won’t accept the church’s decision, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven. I also tell you this if two of you agree here on earth concerning anything you ask, my father in heaven will do it for you. For where 2 or 3 gather together as my followers, I am there among them. So. Wow. He covers. There’s three big ideas here.

Chris
Yeah for sure. Right.

Jeff
There’s the lost sheep. There’s the if somebody sins against you. And then when we gather together to pray.

Chris
This is one of the first times that I’ve sort of questioned the harmony of the Gospels. Wouldn’t Matthew 18 go along with Luke 15? Where Jesus teaches about the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the lost son. Isn’t this the same thing?

Jeff
Yea, perhaps. But I think that they’re clumping it together here because it’s all one conversation for Jesus. It’s literally verses 12 through 20.

Chris
Yeah, but. But those are two different ideas. Yeah. Sure. Right. So, I mean, I don’t.

Jeff
Know, let’s write a stern letter to Tyndale Publishers and tell them, shame on you. Fix it. You want to. Sternly worded a sternly worded email. So?

Chris
So the what was that? There was a movie that said that. Oh, it was Titanic. Oh. After the ship went down, he was floating on the door or she was floating on the door. He goes, I don’t know about you. He goes, but I’m going to go ahead and write a sternly worded email or no, a sternly worded letter to Star Star Line cruises or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeff
Sternly worded email would have been a little out of character for the Titanic letter.

Chris
So yeah, but think about it. The parable of the lost sheep is he’s he’s the focus of these verses is not on the Christian, it’s on the lost sheep. Yes. And it’s the non Christian. And then he then he goes right into something about a Christian offending. Yeah. So these don’t even seem like they’re connected. And then in this Matthew 18 is almost exactly word for word what Luke 15 is. Yeah. So I think that I’m confused about that. I just want to go on record.

Jeff
And just protest.

Chris
Tyndale. I just want to go on record and say, I’m not sure I’m convinced.

Jeff
Okay. Although Matthew did write them literally back to back, so I’m not going to be too offended.

Chris
Well, yeah, of course, but yeah, but they they recorded their events in different places I.

Jeff
Know, I know, yeah. So. Let’s jump into the two ideas or three. There’s three big ideas here. The first one is Guy has 100 sheep. One of them wanders away, he leaves the 99. He goes and finds the one and then rejoices. Right. And you mentioned that that’s that’s really referring to people who are not believers. The one who leaves.

Chris
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The one, the one who is lost. Or honestly, it actually does not say that it’s a non-believer. It actually it actually just refers to that sheep as lost. Right. So so you could, you could argue and say, especially in Luke 15 when it’s coupled with the lost coin and the lost son is that you could, you could make an argument and say they were always under the care of the father, right? Because the coin was in once possession of the owner, the sheep was once in the fold and the son is still the son, right? So you could argue the entire time and say it’s a Christian who’s lost, right? But at the same time, it’s definitely referring to a sheep that you know is in peril, away from the flock that is completely out of the care of the father or, you know, right. And then the son, of course, who’s riotous living in sin, you could you could build a case and say, maybe, perhaps he really did not know the true love of the father. Yeah, because. Because of look at his riotous living. Right.

Jeff
So, yeah, I think that the argument theologically is that there’s never a time when when God refers to believers as lost. Yeah. So it’s just the unsaved that are so you can have people among us that are not yet believers, right, that leave. And so the theological argument for most. Yeah, theologians.

Chris
Would say, I would.

Jeff
Say most there’s no reference to Christians ever becoming lost. Yeah. So it’s it’s that they might have been around the church or around believers, but they left and were never actually a believer.

Chris
Yeah. And I think I would agree with that too, because I’ve always viewed it that way, taught it that way. Everything else. Yeah. So, so anyway, yeah. Just to, just to sort of cover this first idea. It is, it is one of my, you know, driving forces of my entire life. Right. So everything I think of, I think of through the lens of those who are far from God or don’t yet know God. Yeah. Every, every, every terminology. You know, we had a conversation the other day about using the word gospel and I says, well, you know, even even training Christians, we should never use the word gospel. And you’d be like, what are you talking about? And and I’m like, I’m like, well, there’s only one reason. If I have a Christian disciple in my church, my only goal, well, not my only goal, but my main goal is for him to talk to his unbelieving neighbor. And I don’t want him to train him to use the word gospel. I want to train him to say the good news of Jesus, because the unbeliever understands that as soon.

Jeff
As we were done with that conversation, I fired off a sternly worded email to Paul and asked him to refrain.

Chris
Emails him from from.

Jeff
Using the word.

Chris
Gospel. Right.

Jeff
So I think if it’s in the Bible, we can use it. And we talked about that. But the idea being for both of us, our goal is to put everything on the bottom shelf so everybody can.

Chris
Email.

Chris
To Paul.

Jeff
Ask him to refrain from using the word gospel.

Chris
But, but, but, but, but it’s just a small example of of why my brain just goes there. Right? Sure.

Jeff
And you’re trying to put it all on the bottom shelf where everybody can reach it. Yeah. And that’s what we’re doing. And I appreciate that idea.

Chris
And I and I, and I, and I always go toward toward that. And so, so keep in mind just a few thoughts that are just random. And we can just move on from this. Because, you know, I could preach on this all day is that, number one, Jesus asks it rhetorically, as if it’s assumed. He said, doesn’t the shepherd leave? And then he doesn’t come back.

Jeff
Until it’s of course, of.

Chris
Course it’s an of course thing. So so in other words, he’s never going to give up. The second thing is, is that he says in Luke 15, there is more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner that repents. Oh, that’s the reason why. Because he says sinner repents. He says there’s more rejoicing over one sinner that repents than there are 99 people who are saved. Not saying that the 99 are not important, right. But but there’s more rejoicing. In other words, the.

Jeff
Story is not about the 99. The story is about the one.

Chris
Right? So so, so, so there is a there is a there’s a, there’s a listing of mission there that, that that takes priority. And so, so anyway, all of that to say, I love I love this idea that Jesus has a heart and tells us that we should have a heart as the church for those who are not yet a part of the church. Yeah.

Jeff
And so him going out and rescuing this one lost sinner. Yeah, is differentiated from the very next statement that says if a believer sins against you. Right. So he’s on purpose differentiating between these two conversations. Right. The one is a lost sinner. This one is a believer. And so he’s saying, now here’s what you do with a believer who gets cattywampus is that the word we’re looking for? Who gets a little sideways with you?

Chris
Sure.

Jeff
Sure. So a lost person who leaves a lost person who’s wandering you go rescue them. You bring them to Jesus, right? The shepherd goes and saves them. But for a believer, there’s kind of a process of how do we deal with this restoration for a person who’s already a believer. And there’s a little bit of complexity to this that I think is really important for our listeners to think through. So how do you deal with somebody who offends you in the church? Right. A Christian so this isn’t how do you deal with somebody who’s not a Christian, but how do you deal with somebody as a Christian? Because it says if another believer sins against you. Right, right. So this is them, right? Offending you in some way.

Chris
So it’s not even you apologizing. It’s you trying to make right somebody who’s done you wrong.

Jeff
Right, right, right.

Chris
Which is which, by the way, is ten times more difficult, right. Because if you approach somebody and you know that you’re wrong, you have you have a complete position to say, I’ve identified where the wrong is and it’s me. And so here comes the apology that’s, you know, it’s where it should come from.

Jeff
And but there’s a couple of things you might partly you could be assuming they didn’t realize they did you wrong.

Chris
That’s true. Right.

Jeff
It’s choosing to believe the best about them. Now, they may have intended to offend you, but you can go and say, hey, you know what? Bless their hearts. Yeah, right. Like the Southerners do. And, you know, maybe they didn’t. Maybe I’m misunderstanding this thing. But here’s the thing. Our relationship is so important that I don’t want this thing to become a bitter, a bitterness in me. You know, James says, a root of bitterness. I don’t want that in me. And so I’m going to come to you and let’s let’s deal with it. And the pain and the friction that that may cause is worth it if we can fix our friendship.

Chris
Yeah. And by the way, keep in mind as well, he’s also coaching the Christian who has done the offense. Hey, I’m giving permission for other Christians to come to you, right? They’re like, I’m saying the offended is allowed to approach the offender.

Jeff
As believers.

Jeff
We should allow somebody to come and challenge us.

Chris
that’s right. That’s exactly.

Jeff
Right. And so then he says, go privately and point out the offense. Right. That’s the hardest part, right? Right. Because what we want to do is we want to go. Did you hear what so-and-so said? What do you think he meant by that? Right. That’s what we do. And we go and we tell other people, right. And what happens is we start ruining their reputation. We start hurting, hurting the whole body. You know, when when we get an infection. Have you ever noticed you get like a little sliver for the first day? That little sliver just hurts when you touch it. But after a while, it starts to do damage all around. Everything starts getting swollen. Maybe you start getting and now it hurts. Way back here, you know, you just had that one sliver, but now it hurts all around it. And I think that that’s what happens is when we start to go and complain to other people, we’re causing more of the body to hurt rather than just let it be that one offense. Right. And so we go privately first, and then it says if that person listens and confesses it, you’ve won that person back, right?

Chris
Hey.

Jeff
How great. Sure. That’s fantastic.

Chris
And that’s happened several times.

Jeff
Oh, many, many times. You know, if you’re talking about godly people or people who are willing to submit to God’s process, and then he says, but if you’re unsuccessful, then go get 2 or 3 others with you and go back again. And these would be maybe. You know, if I’ve offended you, right? And you come to me and go, Jeff, dude, you stepped across the line and I’m like, you don’t know what you’re talking about, and we don’t fix it. Then maybe you’d go get a couple of people that are close to both of us, that are godly people, trustworthy people, and confront me with the three of you, partly because witnesses at this point, you need you need the witnesses.

Chris
Yeah. And and really what it’s talking about, it’s talking about, uh, if that person does not respond well. Right, right. And so now if it’s just you privately with that person and they don’t respond, well, you got to go back again so that other people can know. Yeah, I was there. They did not respond well a second time.

Jeff
Right, right, right. So you know, you can take this on the side of oh he said mean words to me and that hurt my feelings. Or this could be I think maybe he stole money. Right, right. This could be a really big deal too. Right. So you’re weighing now how big of a deal do you need to make this right. So if it’s just, say, a mean words to you, well, you can address this thing in a way that that is healthy. But the bigger the offense, the more you need to make sure that you’re doing things the right way. And it’s okay. Now you go get a cup of witnesses. You come back and go, hey, Jeff, we were adding some things up and it you know, this document shows there’s money missing, right, or whatever. Right. And now if I still refuse, even with the witnesses, the other experts that know how to manage this stuff. So, no, it wasn’t me. I didn’t do it. But you guys have a camera, a video of me, you know, filling my pockets full of money. And I can use that illustration because I never touch any money at Heritage Church, so. Right.

Jeff
That’s a good one.

Jeff
But, you know, you have a video of me stuffing my pockets full of money. Then it says, take your case to the church. And then if he or she won’t accept the church’s decision, treat that person as a pagan or a tax collector. That point, we all go fine. You’re not one of us anymore. And that is really, really hard. It’s a shocking thing because we’re all supposed to love each other, right? Right. And so to to realize that the loving thing to do with the person who refuses to repent is to send them out.

Chris
Yeah. Well, keep in mind, Jesus constantly coached us on how to treat pagans. Yeah. And that does not mean unloving. No. Right? Right. It just means.

Jeff
You don’t have insight or accent.

Chris
I view you as somebody who’s not a part of the club, right?

Jeff
Right, right.

Chris
Right, right. So so it is. It is. We still love you. We still treat you the same. We will still forgive you at any time. Jesus taught us how to love pagans, right? So. But, but but he’s saying there’s a category here, but we’re.

Jeff
Not inviting pagans in to manage our finances. We’re not inviting.

Jeff
Pagans to.

Jeff
Come in and run ministries or serve in.

Jeff
Significant ways.

Chris
The trust or the level of leadership or the influence. Right? That’s right. Because it’s not just like pastors and. Right. And, you know, like key volunteers and people who manage the offering and things like that. We’re talking about influence, right? Right. So if there’s somebody who is, you know, just just a person of great influence in the church who, who, who, you know, they, they’re a small group leader, or maybe they’re even just a small group person, you know, and they have just incredible influence in the church. Well, if they’re clearly this unrepentant and they deny it and they’re going totally, totally against it, and you sort of see that they’re not open to God in any way after this entire process, even going in front of the church. Right, right. Then it’s like then you sort of have no business influencing anybody in the church. That’s right. So, so it’s so it’s a really harsh to go all the way through this entire list and to actually put somebody in a different category is strong. It’s, it’s, it’s it’s pretty rare to.

Jeff
Yeah. Yeah. You know.

Jeff
And it should be, it.

Jeff
Should be. Yeah.

Chris
It should be rare. But the reason why is because most people that I know because, you know, we’ve been pastors 30 years. Yeah. So how many times have we quoted Matthew 18.

Jeff
Oh sure, I mean hundreds. Oh yeah.

Chris
Right. And most people that I know, they’ll even if it’s a total misunderstanding, they’ll just be like, hey, listen, I don’t even agree with you, but I understand what you’re doing here. And I want to reconcile. Right. And so let’s just we can even agree to disagree. But what we do agree with is I am sorry you’re offended and I don’t want to do this again. And I am interested in in moving forward with correct behavior and all these different kinds of things. So, so even even if there’s an impasse, most people still agree that they want to move forward with, you know, with loving relationships.

Jeff
And and one of the other principles you can take here is that Jesus is not advocating for a passive aggressive response to bad behavior, right? Right. Where we just sit back and go, oh my goodness, I can’t believe that happened. We’re not going to address it. We’re just going to sit around and watch it, right? We’re going to sit around. He has a sense that the church, godly people, should go at a problem and solve it, because when you go at a problem and solve it, it causes the least amount of damage. Right? And that’s really what you’re looking for is instead of letting things fester, the way that you ruin a culture among a group is to just let things get. It infected and rot us from the inside out. And so Jesus wants us to be assertive in going to a person and saying, hey, we need to make sure this is right. Maybe I’m misunderstanding. I’m not sure, but I don’t want anything to be between us, and we need to be that way. And I know for some of us, that’s not our personality type, right? But we need to be the kind of person who doesn’t just sit back and allow things to happen. We have to go at it, address it, solve it. Because we’re we make each other better when we confront sin amongst ourselves.

Chris
So I know that we’re running short on time. But let me just say this too, because you sort of brought it up. There definitely is a different personality types, right? Oh, absolutely. So there’s I teach conflict all the time like you do. And and I always love to use a picture of an ostrich and a rhino. So the rhino loves to run toward conflict. The ostrich buries his head in the sand, right. Or her head in the sand. And most of us are in between, but we sort of have a leaning toward ostrich or rhino. And I would say the majority of the entire world leans towards ostrich. Right. And so I would just say, you know, there are several ways that God has allowed, you know, God has allowed us to live in the 21st century. So if you’re really bad with conflict, then how about a text that says, hey, we need to sit down and talk because I’ve got I’ve got some issues or a problem, right? I mean, we hide behind texts all the time, right? And so if you’re afraid of conflict, it still doesn’t mean that you can’t show leadership skills just because you’re not a rhino. Right? Because you and I are rhinos. Oh, sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Jeff
But we tend to be afraid of conflict because we’ve only seen poor conflict management. Right. And what Jesus is saying is follow this process and do it in love. And this is a healthy conflict management kind of thing. Right. So and if you can’t do it alone, if you just can’t make it happen, it’s not inappropriate to go to that next level. And Jesus is inviting us to bring people with us, right. And to to engage as a group. We are better together, especially when we trust one another. Yeah. And if you’re in a group of Christians you can’t trust, you need to find a new group of Christians.

Jeff
Yeah. That’s good, that’s good. So that’s a big one.

Chris
Well hey, that’s our time. So we will see you next time on The Bible Guys.