Transcription

Chris
Hey, Dave, I noticed you have really nice shiny shoes. You like them? Yeah, I think that means you’re materialistic.

Dave Wilson
Uh, you know, I sort of am. But you know what? I don’t spend money on these things. I’m not trying to get on preachers and sneakers.

Chris
Oh, gotcha.

Dave Wilson
I buy the cheap ones that are sort of knockoff fake, fake deals.

Chris
Nice. Why are you bringing up my shoes? Because it’s today. We’re talking about judging. Are you judging me? I was trying to pretend judge you. Well, today Jeff’s out of town. So this is Dave Wilson, and today we are the Bible guys. All right, so, Dave, uh, we usually start out taking a few minutes doing, like, a fun segment. And this time I thought, because you’re our guest and because a lot of people don’t know you, a lot of people do. I thought it’d be fun for you to tell a story, or maybe where it’s about judging in a sort of way.

Dave Wilson
Well, I mean, we’re going to read Matthew seven. We’re. Yeah. Many of us know about Jesus words about judging. But, uh, you know, for 33 seasons, I was the Detroit Lions chaplain. Yeah. And for 21 of those seasons, our kicker was the same guy, Jason Hanson. If you’re a Lions fan, you remember, Jason was one of the best kickers in the history of the Lions. And if we were to ever want a playoff game, I think you’d be in the Hall of Fame, I really do. He’s that good. But the funny thing is, he was about 10 or 12, 13 years younger than me. But we sort of look alike, right? You know, not really, but enough that when you’re with an NFL team walking into a hotel on a road trip, there’s a lot of big guys, and then there’s some little guys. And Jason wasn’t real big and neither am I. And so for years it would bug him that people thought I was him. Yeah. You know, they come up and say, hey, Jason. He’d be like, what? And I’m like, Jason, I, you know, I had to tell this lady she kept bugging me that I was you. And and he just couldn’t believe it. So one time we were in Texas, in Houston to play the Texans. And it’s a road trip. It’s Saturday night. We stay at the hotel, and Jason and I are literally walking through the lobby to go to dinner, and this seven year old kid comes running up to both of us. And Jason is right where you are, Chris. He’s right beside me. And this kid says to me, Jason Hanson, can I have your autograph? And Jason looks at this kid and just goes, I don’t believe it. Dave Wilson
He literally walks away. So I literally yes, your son and I signed his. I was so embarrassed. But he’s like, how can they think you are me? You’re you’re an old man. That’s so and so. It was really funny is he told me years ago and he’s a really good friend. Uh, Jason, I hope you’re watching or listening. Um, he was in Costco, like, 5 or 6 years ago. And this lady is behind the line. As they’re checking out, she walks up to him. She goes, I know who you are. And he’s a really humble guy, Jason. So he just turns, he goes, hey, good to meet you. And she goes, I go to your church. And he’s like, how in the world does she think I’m Dave Wilson? So here’s the last Jason Heads story because this one turned around. We’re in Chicago to play the bears Saturday night. He and I and a couple other players went to Cheesecake Factory on Michigan Avenue. If you ever been there, it’s right there. Yes, I have, and we were in the hotel right beside that. So we go over there and this lady runs up. I mean, she had to be 75 years old and she pulls out a mini Lions football helmet. She’s a fan. Oh, and she comes right up to Jason and I’m standing right there and she goes, Jason, would you sign this helmet? She’s all excited and it’s the first time I’m not. I’m like looking at her. So I make a joke. I go, hey, so you’re a big Jason Hanson fan. And she looks at me and she goes, are you his dad? And Jason gave her a high five.

Chris
He hugged her and.

Dave Wilson
He goes, finally somebody recognizes. So I guess in some ways I’ve been misjudged all these years.

Chris
Yeah, yeah. Bad case of judgment right there. Yeah, right.

Dave Wilson
That’s never happened to you. Anything like that? Nah.

Chris
Not really. Oh, hey. Hey, uh. One time. Yes. Uh, who’s the actor?

Dave Wilson
You look like the actor. Um, Tony something.

Chris
Tony Danza. Yeah.

Dave Wilson
Tony Danza, do I really?

Chris
Yeah. No, I see you being Tony Danza. What were you going to say? Oh. That’s him. Um, no. One time I was actually, uh. Uh, so, you know, both of us worked at a church called Kensington. We had like, eight campuses at one time, and I was sort of the, uh, you know, it was always like, you know, the main guys, which were the founders, which was you and two other guys. And then there was sort of like the remember DuPont used to say he called himself a junior pastor, right? So he was the guy over on the West Side at Birmingham. I was the guy on the east side at Clinton Township, and we were sort of the sort of the two secondary guys, right? I did a wedding up in, uh, Mackinac Island, and we did it at the Grand Hotel. I’ve never been there. It’s amazing. That’s what I.

Dave Wilson
Hear. I got to go someday.

Chris
It’s amazing. So literally, we’re on the porch. This massive porch, longest covered porch, uh, in the world. I’ve seen.

Dave Wilson
Pictures. Yeah, it looks gorgeous.

Chris
So we did this whole wedding, and then they’re like, let’s get us a picture. And so we’re standing up in this picture and there’s probably like 100 of us. And so, you know, there’s us in the back and this guy is just going on and on. And he looks at me and he goes, hey, I go to, I go to your church. He goes, I got to tell you something. He goes, I think you are unbelievably awesome. And I was really humbled. Right? I’m like, oh, thank you so much. And he goes, I’m telling you, I love your preaching, I love this. You are just the best. Uh, we think you’re the best. And I was like, well, that is so humbling. Thank you so much. He goes, yeah, you do a great job, Clint.

Dave Wilson
Clint.

Chris
He thought I was Clint duping the whole time. And so I thought that was hilarious.

Dave Wilson
Uh, you and Clint don’t look anything alike.

Chris
No. Nothing alike. But we are. I guess we’re in the category of junior pastor, right?

Dave Wilson
That ain’t more.

Chris
So. That was right. That was funny.

Dave Wilson
So we’re going to a pretty familiar passage.

Chris
Yep.

Dave Wilson
Matthew, you talk about some words that. People take out of context. How many times have you heard people say these words that Jesus spoke? Don’t judge me. Yeah, yeah. And so today you’re going to give us the meaning of these words, right, Chris?

Chris
Yeah. That’s me. Unpack it. Right. It’s found right, Clint. It’s found both in Matthew seven and then also in Luke six. And we’re going to read those back to back.

Dave Wilson
Here it is Matthew seven. Jesus is speaking. He said, do not judge others and you will not be judged, for you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged. And why. Worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying to your friend, let me help you get rid of the speck in your eye when you can’t see past the log in your own eye. Hypocrite. First, get rid of the log in your own eye, and then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s. I don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs. They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you. Boom! You talk about. All right, I’ll keep going. Luke six which, as you know, is a is another passage where he’s quoting the same words. Luke wrote it this way. Jesus again said, do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others and you will be forgiven. Give and you will receive. Your gift will return to you in full, pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, running over and poured into your lap. The amount you give will determine the amount you get back. Then Jesus gave the following illustration. Can one blind person lead another? Won’t they both fall into a ditch? Students. Students are not greater than their teacher, but the student who is fully trained will become like the teacher. And why worry about the speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? Dave Wilson
How can you think of saying, friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye when you can’t see past the log in your own eye. Hypocrite. First get rid of the log in your own eye. Then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.

Chris
There it is. So let me start off by reading a note. You know, we don’t get paid for this, but we always endorse the Life Application Study Bible. Yeah. Uh, because it’s just so great. And there’s a note down here that reads, uh, from Matthew 171 through five and it says Jesus’s statement, do not judge others is against the kind of hypocritical, judgmental attitude that tears others down in order to build oneself up. It is not a blanket statement to overlook wrong behavior, but a call to be discerning rather than negative. Jesus said to expose false prophets, uh, referencing Matthew 715, And Paul taught that we should exercise church discipline in first Corinthians five, and to trust God to be the final judge in first Corinthians four. So I thought that was really interesting, because a lot of people, what they take it to mean is they take it to mean that if you have a conversation with somebody, then automatically you’re judging others. And Jesus is talking about the attitude of judging others to make yourself feel better, condemning others like the Pharisees did. Uh, you know, putting others down. But it’s not talking about the overall, uh, you know, uh, act of, of judging in a healthy way because, again, the Bible is its own best commentary. So when you actually take all the scriptures and you put them next to each other, it’s never going to contradict itself. It always supports itself. And when we cross reference and understand the full breadth of the teaching of judgment, we understand that that literally he’s talking about the attitude, uh, he says, hey, the same attitude that you give will be given. That’s why that’s why he mentions it. Right. And, um, and by the way, I think that, uh, uh, you and I, you mentioned this, uh, how many? Chris
I remember one time, you remember the, uh, old, uh, show Parenthood? Oh, yeah. Remember how good that was? I love that show. Well, the two brothers, Adam, and then whatever his name is. Yeah. Uh, Dax, uh, they were sitting there, uh, and his brother, which, by the way, is like the the the most loving brother on the show ever. He looks at him and he says, you know, I’m a little worried about, uh, what you’re doing here, what you’re doing to your, you know, this this, this woman that he’s dating is is not right. And he was totally correct. Right. And then I remember, uh, Dax Shepard saying, don’t judge me. And I remember thinking to myself, like, that is hilarious because this is the perfect scenario that should happen, right? His brother is sitting him down lovingly in the context of friendship, speaking the.

Dave Wilson
Truth and love.

Chris
Speaking the truth in love. And all he’s doing is saying, hey man, I care about you and I’m noticing what you’re doing is wrong. It was about cheating on, uh, cheating on his girlfriend. So, you know, again, that’s a morality thing, right? And he’s saying it the best possible way and should have said it because that’s what friends do. And that’s what every you know, everything that the Bible teaches supports this scenario. Right? And then he goes, don’t judge me. And I’m thinking, dude, he’s not judging you.

Chris
He’s not. It’s the opposite of judging. Dave Wilson
Well, it does seem like when you’re in sin or when you’re doing something wrong, those are the people that are the first to quote the Bible. They may never know anything in the Bible, right? They know this verse. You’re aren’t you? You’re not supposed to judge me. That’s in the Bible. I have no idea why. Where? It’s like the husbands just say, I know one Bible verse. Wives submit to your husbands. That’s the only one they know, right? They don’t even know. They’re supposed to lay down their lives for their wives. But, I mean, how do you approach that situation? Like, that’s a good example of that. And the Parenthood show. Yeah. Where you speak the truth. But if somebody feels judged by it, what do you do? Do you pull back? Do you say, I’m not judging you, I’m just trying to help you?

Chris
Well, I mean, it’s hard to, uh, uh, you know, I mean, it’s there’s a whole Bible study, isn’t that right? So, I mean, it would have been a little if they were both Christians, and they were both, you know, uh, people who knew the Bible. It’d be a lot easier. Yeah, because then he’d be able to say, hey, wait a minute, like that’s in the Bible. But you got to understand the context for that, right? Because the context is he’s talking about judging and condemning way. Actually, the Bible actually says that we’re supposed to judge one another. In fact, I think right before the yeah, I’ll read it podcast started, you looked it up, right? Yeah.

Dave Wilson
First, uh, Corinthians five. The apostle Paul wrote, um, for what have I to do with judging those who are on the outside? So these would be people that don’t believe in Christ. He’s saying I don’t right to judge them. But then he goes on to say, do you not judge those who are the inside but those on the outside? God judges, therefore put away from yourselves the evil person. So he is saying, there’s we used to, you used to call it, you ever use this phrase, I inspect this fruit. I’m not judging, but I’m expecting the inspecting, the.

Chris
Fruit, the fruit.

Dave Wilson
Inspectors. It’s like, you know, if you’re a single person and you’re dating someone to get married, you should inspect the fruit. You should see what kind of life are they living, what kind of how do they treat the waiter? You know, we say. No simple things, but you know they serve others. You should be inspecting the fruit. That’s a wise thing. And the fruit.

Chris
Meaning what Jesus referred to as, uh, behavior. Uh, yeah. Behavior. It’s it’s it’s it’s what produces. Yeah. Right. It’s what what’s getting produced. Yeah.

Dave Wilson
And so if, if, if a fellow man of God and I haven’t met in my life, you have men in your life. We’re in each other’s life. Speaks truth to me that I don’t want to hear. And I feel judged often. It’s like, you know what? I need to hear that that’s good for him to do that. Now, somebody outside the church, what is. What am I running around telling them how they should live when they don’t believe in Christ? It’s like, well, I shouldn’t ask them to live to my standard or Christ standard. If they don’t believe so I want to I’m going to I’m going to reach them with grace, not judgment. Right. But then once they’re in, it’s like, okay, God calls us to a standard and so we can hold each other accountable to live that standard.

Chris
Well, if you continue to read that passage, Paul actually says that he said he said, why should we expect those on the outside who are unbelievers to behave the things and believe the things that we believe? Right, right, right. So in other words, it’s an irrational. And, uh, what’s the word I’m looking for? Uh, unreasonable expectation. Right? Right, right. Why? If somebody doesn’t believe in Christ, it’s unreasonable for them to act like a Christian. So that’s what Paul is saying. And he’s saying, listen, don’t judge the outsiders. But actually, in a in the healthiest of ways, we’re actually called to judge insiders. Yeah. But again, judge is that word that gets tainted. Did you ever notice that we don’t use the word secretary anymore?

Dave Wilson
Administrative assistant.

Chris
Right. You know why. Because it somehow it got attached to that 1950s, uh, you know, sort of like derogatory thing. Right now, the word secretary in itself is a is a neutral word. It’s a good word, right? It accurately describes what she’s doing. Uh, same thing with stewardesses.

Dave Wilson
I was going to say. Yeah. That’s gone. Yeah.

Chris
Same thing with waitresses. We use servers. Right. There are certain words that just get tainted and they get and they just get associated with something negative. Even though the word themselves are good words. You know, when you say judging others, people can’t even hear that phrase without thinking something negative. Yeah. And they go.

Dave Wilson
Right to cancel.

Chris
Right?

Dave Wilson
Cancel culture. You talk about a culture we you can be canceled for something you did in high school ten, 20, 30, 40 years ago. And people it’s a judgment. It’s like you dressed up like that and you’re like, dude, I was 16. I totally was wrong. And you’re done, right? Talk about judgment. It isn’t just a Christian judging the outside. It’s we all judge, right? Everyone judges. And I think Jesus words are like, be very careful because the judgment you give out is going to come back. I got to ask you about this other part, though. The speck in your brother’s eye or your sister’s eye. Yeah. And you don’t see the log. In other words, you have huge sin in your own life. And again, cancel culture, it’s like, you know, I’m going to hide my all stuff, but I just found you said one word that’s racist or you did something years ago that, you know, it’s like we can just, you know, we can focus in on the smallest little thing. And it’s so easy to see the sin in others and not see our own. Right.

Chris
Yeah. And so I’ll give you an example of this. In fact, I’m going to be careful when I say this, but my mom and dad were married for 21 years. Then my they got divorced when I was ten, and then my dad married my mom’s best friend. And that was a little, uh, complicated. And by that, it’s an understatement. Well, anyway, she eventually passes away. Now, my parents are super old. They’re in their 80s, right? 82 and 84. And, uh, they both live separately. But I forgot to mention they were all best friends. They became friends again. So my mom became friends again with with my stepmom. And they would like they did Covid together like they were with each other. So they’re all three of them are all together. And so it’s very unusual. Well, anyway, she dies and then all of a sudden it’s just them two. So all our family is wondering what’s going to happen. Are they going to get back together? What’s going to happen? Well, my my father calls me. And it’s interesting because I’ve now become the pastor of the family. Right. Yeah. And he goes, he goes, I’ve got, I’ve got some, uh, some things to talk about. He goes, I’m feeling certain things. And, uh, not not romantically, but rather like issues of the past. Right. Let’s talk about these certain things. And, uh, and who knows, my mom may be listening right now to the podcast. She listens to these, and that’s fine, because I’ve already told her that we’ve had these conversations. Um, uh, and so here’s basically what I did. I just said, yeah, okay. I said, that was then back then I said, let me ask you a question about you. I said, did you do everything perfect? Chris
And he goes, well, we’re not talking about that. I said, well, let me ask you this. Hey, you may be good in this area and she may be bad, but there’s areas where she’s great and you’re really bad. So can we talk about that because and he goes. You know, you’re right, because I never was even thinking about it. And that that’s the point I’m trying to make. And by the way. And then the next day he called me and he said, I got on my knees, and I asked God to forgive me for doing that. He goes, what you said is right. And I and I thought, that’s not a common conversation with me and my dad. But, you know, it’s interesting because when you’re so focused on their wrong, what Jesus is saying is when you when you’re pointing at somebody, you get four fingers pointing back at yourself, right? But you don’t notice that. And you need to take a time and say, there are some issues that I also have. And people always want to say, well, I know he was wrong and I know I was a little bit wrong, but my wrong was just this much and her wrong was this big, you know, and it’s like, no, no, no. Jesus is like, we all have issues. We’re all imperfect, right? So how can you judge her or him or them when you have these gaping issues in your own life? So give them grace. Yeah, I know.

Dave Wilson
That when I was reading just now, Chris, uh, you know, don’t worry about the speck in your friends. I, I literally in my mind, put in instead of friend your spouse because, you know, I work in the marriage ministry area now, and it is such a common practice in our marriages. And even as parents, we can see the sin or the speck or the, you know, the mistake in our spouse and we it’s the human condition. It’s part of being a sinner is we can see other sins. We have a hard time seeing our own. And when somebody calls it out on us, we say, you’re judging me. And that’s where we go when we can’t. I remember reading Tim Keller’s book The Meaning of Marriage. Great book, by the way, on marriage. And I remember he said, every this happens to every single person who gets married. I remember reading this to my sons, like, this is going to happen to you because it happened to us. He says three things happen. Number one, you won’t believe how selfish you are. It’ll just come out. Marriage has a way of bringing it out and parenting too. But yeah, he says that’s number one. Number two, you won’t believe how selfish your spouse is because marriage brings it out. Then guess what number three is? You will conclude that her selfishness is worse than yours. That’s great. And we laugh because it’s like that’s the speck she’s got or he’s got. And we see that like this and we don’t see our log. Yeah, we we almost act like I don’t have any problems. It’s all her, her, him. And it’s like when you are finally willing to admit I am the problem in this marriage. Dave Wilson
Yeah. You have a chance for that marriage, you know? You know, and I speak around the country on marriage all over the country. And every conference we do, this is what happened. It would happen at church, too, if I ever preached on it. A spouse will come up and say. My husband, my wife, I can’t. They’re just gods. I I’ve been trying to change them. What? What do I do? You know, we say every time. What? Stop trying to change him. You can’t change him, right? Only guy can change him. You change you. And that hopefully will lead to a better marriage. A man. When you see your spouse doing the right thing over and over, even when you don’t deserve it. It’s sort of motivating. It’s convicting. And like, why is she treating me so well when I don’t deserve it? Rather than judging. It’s it can lead to something you’ve always wanted, you know? And it starts with you.

Chris
Yeah. So I think I think a good, a good thing to wrap up with is didn’t you write a song about log a log?

Dave Wilson
I you remember that I do. No way.

Chris
Yeah. I know you don’t have your guitar here, but, you know, you can sing us a bar.

Dave Wilson
No kidding. You didn’t tell me you were going to bring that up.

Chris
Of course.

Dave Wilson
But you don’t remember the original? The original was Rawhide, an old country and western back in the 50s, I think. I didn’t even know it, but I do remember I did it so many times around the country. Maybe at church. Uh, there once was a man that came from way out west, always told his wife what he thought was best, and if she ever tried to cross his path, she was sure to receive the deadly wrath of lagi lagi lagi. You can’t stand face to face with lagi. And. And all the women say lagi. There’s a lot of verses that thing. But it was a fun version of this passage. You know, you and I, we’re log guy, right? And we can’t see the log on our own eye, but we can sure see it in others. I can’t believe you remember that.

Chris
Of course I do. Well, hey, that is.

Chris
A great place to end. And, uh, hopefully we will see you next time on The Bible Guys.