Transcription

Connor:
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Chris:
Well, good morning, everyone.

Jeff:
Woohoo! Here we are.

Chris:
My name is Chris. And I’m Jeff. And we are The Bible Guys! I can’t believe we just instinctively did that. That’s so funny. So in case you’re wondering, we never script anything. We just wing it. So that’s funny that we The only difference is you sort of sang it. The Bible, guys.

Jeff:
Well, I figured you were going to stay right at the pitch you were at, so I’ll go above you a little bit.

Chris:
So, hey, today we’re going to start out with a segment called Mailbags.

Jeff:
I love mailbags. Mailbags are great.

Chris:
Mailbags! We always say mailbags. We always sing that one. So mailbags is somebody who just writes in and just wants to communicate with us. So we are always careful to say, we love responses. We love questions. So email us at info at thebibleguys.com. And we would love to consider your question.

Jeff:
Cause normally we love it when you send us a question, but Erica O, you crossed the line. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This one says, I have really enjoyed listening to both of you every morning on my way to work. Thank you, Erica. That’s nice. We often get to see your silly sides, but I wanted to ask, what are some of your favorite characteristics about each other?

Chris:
What? Yeah. Things we gotta get serious.

Jeff:
So Jeff, what are your favorite characteristics about Chris? So Jeff, what are your favorite characteristics about Chris and vice versa? Well, Erica Erica Oh, that’s a little presumptuous assume that we have fondness for each other All right, so Chris and I have how long we’ve known each other for 18 years something like that 1819 Yeah, it’s been 18 years because I came to Heritage in March of 2006, and we hung out at a retreat in January of 2006. Oh yeah? Yeah, yeah. Wow, okay. So like 18 years. And one of my favorite things about Chris, just on a surface level, is he’s very clever and quick. And it’s rare that I find somebody that’s as clever and as quick as I am. So Chris regularly puts me in my place, catches me, and just makes me laugh. So that’s one of them. The other one is Chris’s heart and passion for getting the gospel to people who don’t know Jesus is a really big one, right? And making what we teach be as understandable as possible. So those two things. And then man, he’s a real family man, real family man. So those are the things I love about Chris.

Chris:
All right. So, uh, but don’t tell him, Erica, don’t, don’t, don’t tell him that I said that. All right. Here’s what I would say. I would say, uh, you’ve got a super big, compassionate heart for people. And it’s, and it’s oftentimes people that you have no responsibility to have compassion on. You know, so like you would hear a situation about a person and you feel ownership for that person. And I’ve seen you do it many times. You did it with me. You’ve done it with staff members. I’ve seen you do it with fellow people in ministry. where you just have a super big heart for them and want to help them and take care of them. So I think that that is, um, that’s huge. And then, um, also I would say, uh, I know, right. And then I would also say, uh, uh, you are very, uh, uh, I’ve not seen too many people willing to, I don’t know how to say it without saying it, like you brought me on staff and gave me a lot of your responsibilities and a lot of the things that you love, which means there’s humility there. There’s a, uh, no ego kind of a thing. And, uh, you’re willing to let me shine. And, and I think that that is, uh, really rare. I think that’s really, really rare. We’ve, we’ve only seen that. I think, I think I’ve only seen that a couple of times in my whole life where somebody is really willing to say, Hey, I’m, I’m secure enough. You know, I’m okay to have somebody come in and shine bright. Uh, and, and I’m okay with that. So yeah, there’s a lot in there. There’s a lot of humility. And the third thing I would say is you’re really open to changing your mind. And even though that you debate well, and a lot of people won’t argue with you, right? And they’re just like, hey, it’s just a losing battle for you to just talk with Jeff. And that’s true because you debate well. I would say the other thing is, but as long as you’re willing to hang, I’ve seen you so many times go, okay, I changed my mind. You convinced me. And so you were very willing to do that. So there you go.

Jeff:
Well, I take that as a compliment. Yeah. Good. Well, thank you, Chris. That’s nice. No, that felt really gross. The whole thing.

Chris:
Don’t do that again, Eric.

Jeff:
Please don’t ever make us do that again. And then we’ve just been buddies for a long time.

Chris:
Thanks for sucking the joy out of the room.

Jeff:
ruining the whole day, but we’ve been buddies for quite a while. Everything that we ever did before we started working together full time, we always had fun. It was just, we’d stay up too late. We’d be, you know, laughing a lot. And at the same time, strategizing, trying to figure out how to make a difference, whether, you know, we were in Cuba. or we were in Kenya or different places, you know, working on stuff. And then if you don’t know, there’s a secret video out there somewhere for my 10th anniversary. Chris did one of the most brutal roasts for me in front of about my mom and dad, my wife and my children, and about a hundred of my friends on our 10th anniversary.

Chris:
At the request of Chad Hasman. Chad is the one who brought me in and he told me to go full on.

Jeff:
It was brutal. So, uh, there’s a lot of that. We just, we have a lot of fun together and I think it’s just really great to, I think we have a relationship. I don’t know what your relationship like with your brothers is, but my relationship with you is like my relationship with my brothers. Just constantly busting each other’s chops and laughing, but really significant. So yeah, it’s fun. I decided a long time ago that we would be better together than apart. At least I would be better with you on the team. So yeah, it’s fun. That’s awesome. Okay. Let’s stop that. Yeah. Let’s move on. Move on to God’s word. Like I said, Erica is so unbelievably presumptuous that we had nice things to say about it. Right.

Chris:
What the heck Erica?

Jeff:
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris:
Yeah. All right.

Jeff:
Well, Hey, today we’re going to talk about, he likes long walks on the beach, Erica.

Chris:
That’s right. That’s right.

Jeff:
And puppies. He loves puppies and long walks on the beach. Okay. So, So today, Matthew 23.

Chris:
I actually do like both of those things.

Jeff:
I know. Do you like long walks on the beach? No, I hate walking in the sand. Hate it. Do you? Yeah. I like to go to the beach and then sit out.

Chris:
Yeah, no, not me, man. I walk the coast, you know, where the shore, where it hits the beach, you know.

Jeff:
Where it’s packed, it’s a little bit more solid.

Chris:
Well, I’m an extrovert. So I love it.

Jeff:
You like to go talk to people. People watching.

Chris:
No, no, not necessarily walking over and talking to people because they’re all wearing bathing suits. That’s weird. But just to people watch and then, you know, hear the ocean, all that stuff.

Jeff:
I like all that. When we’re at the beach, my wife usually rents a cabana. We kind of pull it up, block ourselves out from everybody else and just enjoy the water. Yeah. So anyways, Matthew chapter 23, verse 13, Jesus is again, challenging these religious leaders. So last couple of days, last week, he was busting their chops a little bit. And then they quit asking him questions. So he pivots now.

Chris:
Well, he knows the end is near and he’s not holding back any punches.

Jeff:
Right. Well, he wants to, he’s trying to shake the people off of their old premises. And one of the things, most of their life premises were built around these religious leaders. So here it goes. He says this in verse 13 of chapter 23 of Matthew. What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law, you Pharisees, hypocrites, for you shut the door of the kingdom of God in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves and you don’t let others enter either. What sorrow awaits you, teachers of religious law, and you Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell that you yourselves are. You blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear by God’s temple, but that it is binding to swear by the gold in the temple. Blind fools! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear by the altar is not binding, but to swear by the gifts on the altar is binding. How blind! For which is more important, the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear by the altar, you’re swearing by it and everything on it. And when you swear by the temple, you are swearing by it and by God who lives in it. And when you swear by heaven, you’re swearing by the throne of God and by God who sits on the throne. But sorrow awaits you, teachers of religious law, and you Pharisees, hypocrites, for you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law, justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things. Blind guides, you strain your water so you won’t accidentally swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel. What sorrow awaits you, you teachers of religious law, and you Pharisees, hypocrites? For you are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you’re filthy, full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee, first wash the inside of the cup and the dish, and then the outside will come clean too. What sorrow awaits you, teachers of religious law, and you Pharisees, hypocrites? For you are like whitewashed tombs, beautiful on the outside, but filled on the inside with dead people’s bones and all sorts of impurity. Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy lawlessness. What sorrow awaits you, teachers of religious law, and you Pharisees, hypocrites? For you build tombs of the prophets your ancestors killed, and you decorate the monuments of the godly people your ancestors destroyed. Then you say, if we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would never have joined them in killing the prophets. But in saying that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started, snakes, sons of vipers. How will you escape the judgment of hell? Therefore, I’m sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law, but you will kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips in your synagogues, chasing them from city to city. As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time, from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you killed in the temple between the sanctuary and the altar. I tell you the truth, this judgment will fall on this very generation. That was… So gee, I wonder how Jesus feels about the Pharisees.

Chris:
Yeah, super, super harsh.

Jeff:
Hey, if this was on Facebook, he typed that entire thing in caps.

Chris:
No kidding. No kidding. Or Twitter or whatever. That is unbelievable.

Jeff:
Man, he went after it.

Chris:
Yeah. And, you know, and again, we talked about this just last week, but, you know, the idea that, that, you know, that there was no good in the Pharisees, you know, I don’t give them credit. Uh, and you, you just said, Hey, it could have been that they thought, you know, that they didn’t have to have their whole heart being a good person. They just had to follow the law. And I, and I received that. Uh, but Jesus here is clearly saying some really harsh things.

Jeff:
You’re ruining people’s lives is what he’s saying.

Chris:
Yeah. He’s saying, he’s saying you’re like, I think the worst one was you’re like whitewashed tombs. right? You’re white on the outside, and yet you’re full of dead man’s bones on the inside. Holy Christmas. And then snakes, vipers, and then, you know, hypocrites.

Jeff:
Hypocrites seem to be a theme.

Chris:
Yeah, right. Yeah. Hypocrites. Yeah. I’m watching the chosen right now. And, uh, did you know that, uh, as of right now, I just heard yesterday that chosen season four, I guess maybe the, I don’t even know, but somebody invited me and said, Hey, it’s season four is at the theaters right now. Oh, wow. We just finished a season three, my wife and I both. And, uh, and just in case I got to put a caveat because everybody probably around the world knows the chosen. Yeah. Uh, the chosen is, is not a straight gospel. Uh, so the reason why they call it, I believe, I think this is true. I think the reason why they call it the chosen, my brother told me is because he, he unpacks the lives of those that Jesus chose. Right. So it’s like, so it’s like everybody, he chose to heal everybody. He chose to, you know, follow him. And what they do is they sort of suppose what it must’ve been like. So if there’s only just like a sentence of saying Jesus healed the blind man, that’s it. That’s all it says. What they do is they sort of create a story of like, they show this blind man, you know, what it must’ve been like, and all these things happened to him. They give him a name, you know, Hey Bill, you know, whatever. And then, and then all of a sudden, by the time he gets to Jesus, you know, and then, and then Jesus heals him, you feel the, of what it must’ve been like, like, you know, we read it and go, Oh, cool. It must’ve been great for that man to receive his sight. Right. It’s like, no, you don’t understand. It’s life changing. And that’s really what The Chosen does.

Jeff:
They’ll make half an episode over three sentences. Yes. When it seems like a meaningful story.

Chris:
Yes. And so that’s what they do. And honestly, what ends up happening is, for me anyway, for me, it actually makes a lot of sense theologically. The guy who makes The Chosen, Dallas Jenkins, I think has a lot of theological grit to him, and I think that he sort of puts together and makes sense a lot of these conversations in context. And honestly, even the ones that are straight Bible, you know, like you just read the entire conversation straight in the Bible, and all of a sudden when he puts context around it, I’m like, man, I understand that so much. Anyway, all that to say this, when I, unfortunately, when I hear this speech by Jesus, all I see is the actor for The Chosen.

Jeff:
So you envision Jesus?

Chris:
Yes, I totally can see the actor going, hypocrites. And then turning around and looking at the crowd and, you know, I’m sort of wired that way by movies. And I’m telling you, this must have been an uprising, right? So we can’t read it here, but try to imagine, like, try to be dramatic with it. Try to be, you know, use your imagination of how the Pharisees around him must have reacted. And, and, and I’m telling you, this would have been, this would have been probably one of the most harsh things up to Jesus’s ministry at this point.

Jeff:
And it’s interesting because he talks about, at the very beginning, you shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves and you don’t let others enter either. That’s his frustration. Then he just goes off on them. So by the time he gets done, if the Pharisees didn’t want to kill him before this, Right? He does this. Remember, he’s teaching in the temple every day. This is likely happening in the courts of the temple.

Chris:
And their whole job was to bring others to God.

Jeff:
Right. Right. In their mind, that’s what they thought.

Chris:
Right. And he’s saying the opposite.

Jeff:
Right. Well, he says you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are.

Chris:
I take it back. That’s the worst comment. That’s the worst comment. It really is.

Jeff:
It really is. And then he calls them blind guides, all these things. So there’s a note in the Life Application Study Bible, Matthew 23, 13 says, being a religious leader in Jerusalem was very different from being a pastor in secular society today. Israel’s history, their culture, and their daily life centered around its relationship with God. The religious leaders were the best known, most powerful, and most respected of all leaders. Jesus made these stinging accusations because the leaders hunger more for power, money, and status had made them lose sight of God and their blindness was spreading to the whole nation. That’s why he’s going after them. So it’s not like he’s just going after a couple of preachers down the street. You don’t even know the pastor named down the street from your subdivision or something, probably. But then the religious leaders were the stars. They were the stars of society. And so what he said is, you guys are the ones that are building this religious system that is taking people away from God instead of drawing them to him. And then the reason why you know that is because by the time you get to the end, what he’s saying is, I’m going to be sending more prophets, more preachers to you, and you’re going to kill them too. Right? So you went after the people who are preaching the truth, whether, and he mentioned Zechariah, he mentions even all the way from Abel. But he gets to Zechariah, which is one of the last prophets that was killed. He was killed in the temple, probably where Jesus is preaching, although between the sanctuary and the altar. And he’s going, I’m going to send you some more prophets and you’re going to kill them too, because you hate the word of God and you hate anything that challenges the construct that you have of this religion. And so he goes on, he comments, he compliments them in many ways. You tithe, you strain your water. So a gnat was an unclean bug. So they would literally pour their water through filters to make sure they didn’t accidentally get a bug in their, in their, you know, a little tiny gnat in their drink because they didn’t want to be unclean. And so they were convinced that the rules of the law were the point. Those are the point, not a relationship with God, not knowing God, not having God permeate all of your life. The rules of God permeated their life. And that’s why they were clean on the outside and they were completely dead on the inside. He mentions you’re like a washed cup, but on the inside you’re full of filth. You’re like a whited sepulcher. You’re all clean on the outside, painted all pretty on the outside, this beautiful tomb. Have you ever gone to a fancy cemetery and looked at all the fancy things? Oh yeah. So my wife and I, several years ago, our children hated hiking. So I love being out in nature. Kids hated it. So we found this thing, it’s called letterboxing, letterboxing.org or whatever, AtlasQuest, there’s a couple different websites. But there’s hundreds of thousands of these basically scavenger hunt kind of things. You have to use clues and all this stuff. So one day we were getting ready to, it was my wife’s birthday and she wanted to go away. We didn’t have a lot of money, so I didn’t have a lot of money to go do something. So I just drew a five hour circle around our house and it turns out, and I was just looking for where’s it gonna be the nicest weather. And it turned out it was Cincinnati. So I’m looking around trying to figure out this letterboxing thing. Hey, we could do that. That’s free. I’ll just get a hotel. We’ll drive down, spend two days. And it turns out the second largest cemetery in the U.S. is in Cincinnati. And there are some super famous people. Procter and Gamble are both buried there, and they have these huge monuments. I think there’s a former president, there’s governors, there’s generals are all buried there. It’s really a big deal. And they have these massive, massive monuments, right? And huge sepulchers, they build these big buildings. It’s really a magnificent kind of a place. And so we spent like two days in that. And it was funny, we’re going around taking pictures of where dead people are. Right? Because you just get so sucked in to look how beautiful these things are. And it just reminded me, but on the inside, we wouldn’t want to see anything on the inside.

Chris:
Right.

Jeff:
It was just how incredibly ornate and fancy it was on the outside. That’s exactly what Jesus is trying to say, is you’re so beautiful and fancy on the outside, you look great, you look like you’re right, and you’re completely dead inside spiritually. That’s awesome.

Chris:
Well, it’s an awesome challenge. Yeah, I mean, like, the imagery I’m so impressed with is why I said awesome, right? Like, Jesus is able to use snakes. He’s able to use sepulchers and tombs. He’s able to use camels and gnats. I mean, all these different types of things. And that’s what I mean. It’s like, Jesus is is awesome in these comparisons. So, but yeah, you’re right. It’s not awesome. What I was going to say is, when he said you strain to not swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel, it actually says, see Leviticus 11, 4 and 23, where gnats and camels are both forbidden as food. And so that helps to know what he’s really saying is he’s saying, you know, you work so hard to pay attention to the little things, but you’re neglecting justice, mercy, and, you know, and faith. And he’s saying, you swallow a camel. It’s like, how could you be so, you know, foolish as to swallow a camel? He’s like, don’t you understand what you’re actually doing? Right. You’re paying attention to these things and you’re neglecting these things. It’s like you’re swallowing a camel. I think that’s incredible imagery.

Jeff:
Yeah, he’s really challenging what’s inside versus what’s outside. And he’s not saying you shouldn’t make sure the outside is right. He’s saying that you shouldn’t, that what you’re doing is you’re ignoring the most important things, justice, mercy, faith. So it’s interesting, there’s a few places in the Bible where it talks about the most important things. We just read a couple days ago, the greatest commandments. Love God, love people. What’s the greatest commandments? When you look at all 617 laws, what’s the greatest commandments? Love God, love people. Here, Jesus says, don’t ignore the most important things. Justice, mercy, faith. Paul later on writes, there’s only three things that are really going to last. Faith, hope, and love. The greatest of these things is love. I really pay attention to those. Solomon said, the principal thing is wisdom, so therefore get wisdom. Whenever you get these little lists like that, just understand God is giving you a chance to kind of take a glimpse at what is he really looking for, right? And this right here, justice, mercy, and faith, those are all inside things. And yeah.

Chris:
Maybe a takeaway for an application for our listeners from this passage is We know some people don’t we who like religiosity more than they do God himself So he says, you know, he says, you know, what’s gold? What’s better gold or the or the temple that makes the gold sacred when you swear by heaven? It’s actually the throne of God And so it’s not these religious things that you’re a part of, it’s God himself. And so a lot of times we can like going to church, we can like on the outside people seeing us go to church, but in the inside we have to challenge ourselves and say, do we care about what’s most important? Does God have our heart on the inside? And I think that a lot of times, you know, we could be that way. We can have a show on the outside, but God not have our heart on the inside. And that’s really the heart of this.

Jeff:
Yeah, that’s exactly it.

Chris:
All right. Well, hey, listen, that’s our time. And so we will see you next time on The Bible Guys.