Transcription

Chris
So, Jeff, do you want to know my choice? Yes. Hell no. Heaven. Yes. Yes. There you go. I’m saying no to hell and I’m saying yes to heaven. Do you like what I did there? That’s a good idea. Yeah, well, that’s what we’re talking.

Jeff
About today, for sure. So he’s Chris and I’m Jeff and we’re the Bible guys. Okay.

Chris
So

Jeff
This is gonna be a big one today.

Chris
Yeah, yeah. Talking about hell is always a big thing. Yeah. Uh, but before we get into that, uh, we have a fun little segment at the beginning, uh, that is entitled this or that. Yeah, yeah. Which is really. Which is so fun. Would you rather. Yes.

Jeff
Would you rather

Chris
It’s a form of would you rather. Yes. And it’s formed like it’s questioned like this. Which one would you rather do. So number one we both have to vote. Okay. Would you rather get stranded in Antarctica or the Sahara Desert?

Jeff
Oh, wow. Uh, Antarctica?

Chris
I think so, too. Uh, because I think freezing to death is. I’ve heard it’s less painful than being scorched to death.

Jeff
Oh, I didn’t know we were dying. I just thought we were being stranded.

Chris
Uh, stranded is dying, is it? Well, you’re not going to get rescued from Antarctica.

Jeff
Well, I don’t know. So for me, the reason why I would want to do that is I haven’t been on that continent yet.

Chris
Oh, wow. You’re thinking like an explorer.

Jeff
Wow. So? So I’ve been in the Sahara many times. That’s funny. Both ends of the Sahara. But I haven’t. I haven’t been in, uh, haven’t been in Africa yet. So you’re. So just check it off the box. At least if I’m dying that day, at least I went to an nothing to do with survival. I really do want to go. It’s a bucket list. Yeah.

Chris
That’s funny. Okay. Number two. That’s hilarious. Would you rather go on a wild vacation full of new experiences? You’re already saying yes. Yes, or go on a super relaxing vacation that leaves you well rested.

Jeff
Oh, wild, wild adventurous. No question. Yeah, yeah.

Chris
I’m the first one every time. Yep. Uh, okay. Number three, would you rather be Batman or Superman? Is this even a question? Who wrote this? They should be shot.

Jeff
Yeah. Batman.

Chris
Stop it. You should be shot.

Jeff
Yeah, I think Batman is super cool. I think Superman is super nerdy.

Chris
By the way, if you shoot me and I’m Superman, it won’t matter. Yeah, if you’re Bruce Wayne and I shoot you, you’re dead.

Jeff
That just means you have to be better.

Chris
No, it means you’re not Superman.

Jeff
Well, you got a good outfit.

Chris
Batman is one of the biggest jokes of a superhero ever.

Jeff
I think Batman is the best of all the superheroes. Uh, from the DC side. Do you really? Yeah, I do, it’s just super cool. Hey, who doesn’t want to be a billionaire with much cool toys? The rest of it’s all fake. You know that, right? Well, but I think I think Elon Musk might be. I think he might be a Batman just running around.

Chris
You’re talking about Bruce Wayne? I would love to be Bruce Wayne. Sure. Batman and his cool toys. It’s sort of ridiculous.

Jeff
It’s more it’s more believable than some guy can fly around in the sky because he wears a cape but can’t fight when somebody has a green rock by him.

Chris
Not even close to. What are you talking about? If you’re going to take me into a world where avatar exists on Pandora, then I’m there. Sure, I must accept that to even enter into that world.

Jeff
No, no, I get it, I get it.

Chris
But but here’s your world. Your world is. Batman is just a human who knows karate. And he does all those things with gadgets. Yeah, that is not a believable word.

Jeff
I think it’s super cool.

Chris
Okay. But okay. I’m angry. What made Chris mad? What made Chris mad today?

Jeff
Jeff’s bad choices.

Chris
Okay. Number four. Okay. Would you rather be illiterate forever? Ooh. Or only read dictionaries in your free time? That’s terrible.

Jeff
Oh, that’s a hard one. Uh, only read dictionaries.

Chris
I think so too.

Jeff
Yeah, yeah.

Chris
Yeah, but that’s that’s.

Jeff
That’s a really hard one.

Chris
Ooh, I don’t know. I may change my answer. Uh, only that means that every single waking moment. That’s how I read it.

Jeff
No, your free time.

Chris
Of your free time.

Jeff
Just stay busy.

Chris
Oh I see, yeah.

Jeff
Okay. And then at least you’re educated.

Chris
Right. Okay. Well. All right, staying busy. I guess you’d have to. Okay, I guess I just don’t know what discretionary time is, I guess. Right? Number five, would you rather get. Oh, well, I think this is written wrong. Would you rather cook a five course meal with Dwayne The Rock Johnson or get ice cream with Zac Efron? They said they they said they said, would you rather cook. A five course meal with just you? Yeah, with Dwayne Johnson. Or you can ice cream. The fact that they say get ice cream. I don’t even think we have to vote on that.

Jeff
When do we?

Chris
That’s hilarious.

Jeff
So if you’re new to the podcast, uh, early on in the podcast, we had asked Chris.

Chris
Early on, like week number three.

Jeff
Yeah, we had asked Chris, what’s the.

Chris
197 episodes ago?

Jeff
Yeah. Who do you want to play Chris Zarbaugh in the inevitable movie made of your life? And he immediately said this. He immediately said Zac Efron from, uh, when he was in Baywatch because he was perfect. And I was like, didn’t Dwayne The Rock Johnson first?

Chris
Wasn’t he in? I did not say it that way because, wow, that’s the way you heard it.

Jeff
When you were talking about his abs and his muscles. And I did not say.

Chris
Because he was.

Jeff
Perfect. And then you told us that he can sing and dance. Remember all the things. What I.

Chris
Believe is that God made him better than you and.

Jeff
Me and the rest of us. Yes, yes, yes. Uh, but of course, the rock isn’t made better than us.

Chris
Yeah. He’s. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Big huge guys. Anyway, uh, the, uh, the so.

Jeff
So so I think we know how the vote went down.

Chris
What’s so great about this is the, it’s the fact that they said cook a five course meal, and then the antithesis is they go get ice cream. It’s so great. It’s so sophisticated.

Jeff
Very good. Touche. Touche, Desiree. She did a great job.

Chris
Really funny. Oh, funny. Okay, so, so, uh, and by the way, given these two, number one, I don’t cook. Right, right, right. And number two, because I would rather meet Zac Efron than Dwayne The Rock Johnson. Yeah. The answer would legitimately be go get ice cream with Zac Efron. It would legitimately be that this is the which is even funnier.

Jeff
Thank you so much for that moment.

Chris
Yes. You’re welcome. Oh, mercy. Well, let’s talk about hell. There’s a there’s a transition.

Jeff
We just put all of our listeners through it. So that’s the right.

Chris
Right. That’s true.

Jeff
Well, hey, uh, yesterday, for those of you, this is a hard transition. How do we transition out of that? That was so unexpected. Okay, so yesterday we we finished up with the great white throne judgment, right? That, uh, judgment, the ultimate judgment of God, sorting out those that were believers in Christ, whose name was found in the written in the Lamb’s Book of Life versus those who had rejected him and their name was not found. And then he casts death and hell in the grave all into think. So we’re going to summarize that again, and then we’re going to unpack the idea of hell. And how do you go there and the idea of heaven and how do you go there.

Chris
So let’s transition to something more serious. Here we go.

Jeff
Here we go. Revelation chapter 20. Yeah. Let me pick up where we ended yesterday. It says then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. Yeah, I think my least favorite idea. In existence is the idea of hell. Yeah. For sure. I hate the idea of hell.

Chris
Well, it’s actually a tension point for most Christians. In other words, like I’m talking about the actual doctrine of hell. Yeah, the doctrine of somebody suffering that God would create it, allow it. Uh, that whole thing. Um, in my experience, and I’ve been a pastor for 31 years, I’m not sure, uh, what your experience is, but I’ve thought about this coming in because we knew I knew we were going to be talking about this. And I actually thought to myself I was trying to put a percentage on it. And I think this is true. Uh, I think the struggle is real. And I think that whenever talking about the actual reality and the doctrine of hell, I think 70% of the people that I talk with about it. Struggle with the idea that this is the way things are. Mhm. They just they’re just uncomfortable with like like like they believe in God. They believe that what God’s Word says is true. And if this is how God says things are going to play out and this is the reality of things, then they believe in completely accept that. Uh, but they just struggle with the idea that it is that way. And I got to be honest, I do too. So so it is, it is, it is one of those things about, you know, you know, again, you can you do the flip coin of that. The flip side of the coin is when you start to understand the righteousness of God, when you understand the goodness of God, the fairness of God, the the patience of God. Uh, you know, the idea of, of good and evil and and I mean, all of those things, like, it helps you understand the doctrine of hell more and and it understands you understand it almost completely. But the struggle is still real and it’s just the way it is.

Jeff
So I think, um, for me struggling through this, this idea of hell, um. Where I kind of came to settling in was. Logically because my emotions say, no way. It’s not fair. It’s not reasonable, it’s horrific. So that’s my emotions. But my logic brought me to this conclusion, which, by the way, you know, Jeremiah, God says, come, let us reason together, says the Lord. Right. So God uses logic. My logic came to this either I as a limited human and by the way, as a human, I can’t see very far and I can’t see very much. It’s one of the reasons why some of my atheist friends are confusing to me. It would be much more intellectually honest to be an agnostic than it would be to be an atheist, because an atheist is claiming to have total knowledge and it’s just not possible as a human, even as a Christian who is confident that God is true. I don’t have total knowledge. I can’t know, right? Everything so so with the as a person who knows little and can’t see very far. Am I really saying that my morality is greater than God’s morality? Mm. Right. That God is slightly less moral than me because I wouldn’t do hell, but God does. Or the flip side of that logical coin is. Or am I missing something? Am I minimizing how horrific hell is? I mean, sin how horrific sin is. And then I’m missing how extraordinary God’s grace is. He could have just made only hell. But instead to wipe out and judge everything that’s evil, because evil is the antithesis of God. He could have just made hell be the thing and totally obliterate all things that commit sin. But instead, how extraordinarily good and beautiful is his grace that he was willing to pay the price for me. He was willing to go to hell through hell for me in order for me to have eternal life with him, even though I’m a sinner. And that’s where Romans five eight is. I’m telling you one of my favorite verses in the Bible. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Chris
Yeah.

Jeff
So if I can really appreciate the fact that hell is the only thing anything that has ever sinned deserves. And yet he demonstrates his love by paying the price so I don’t have to go there. That really makes him an extraordinary hero in this story. Not evil, not not bad, and certainly my morality. A God who’s willing to extend grace has a higher level of morality than I do, because he extends grace far more often than I do. So then I have to just settle in and go, okay, what do I do with hell? And I believe in hell because Jesus believed in hell. That’s that’s that’s it. It comes down to that I’m not more moral than God. Yeah, and I believe in hell because Jesus does.

Chris
So there’s there’s there’s different words for hell mentioned all the way throughout the scriptures. And there’s sort of three categories. Uh, one is known as Sheol, one is, uh, Gehenna or the Lake of fire, and then one is Hades. Hades is, uh, almost exclusively referred to as a place not of torment, but just a place of death.

Jeff
Of the dead, right.

Chris
Of the dead. It’s just the place of the dead. And when it translates into Hades, that’s that’s the way that translates.

Jeff
Uh, it’s sometimes translated in modern translations as the grave.

Chris
The grave? That’s right, that’s right, that’s exactly right. Yeah. So I think of that whenever I think of Hades, I think of the Grim Reaper. Yeah, yeah, that old, that old fake, uh, image. And then, um, and then there’s Gehenna. And Gehenna was a literal, you know, place. Yeah. Burning it was actually southwest, just outside of Jerusalem. And, uh, Jeremiah the prophet referred to Gehenna way back then because it used to be a place of, uh, human sacrifice. And then and then it became a place, uh, destined to be a place of, uh, where they threw their garbage and their unwanted things, and they constantly burned it, right?

Jeff
Perpetually burning.

Chris
Perpetually burning dump. And it was it was. The flames never went out. Yeah. And so whenever they referred to Gehenna, which is why people have a little bit different interpretations, they’re like, oh, Jesus was just using a visual aid, you know, that kind of thing, like, you know, but there’s a lot of debate about that. But but what is clear is, is that, uh, it is it is a place of fire. It is a place of, uh. Seems like it’s torment. Yeah. Uh, it’s referred to as, you know, weeping and gnashing of teeth and and then Jesus uses another word, uh, that says, uh, darkness. Right? He said there’ll be there’ll be darkness forever. Yeah. And by the way, uh, this is probably a good time because I mentioned both of those things to, uh, talk about how there are different opinions about hell, like, like, like there’s a minority view that says that they think that everybody will be given a chance to repent after death before hell. Right? And that people won’t, you know, have to be subject to hell because now they realize who God is, they’ll be given a chance. And then another, another minority belief is that hell will eventually be evacuated and that it is a temporary torment and that people will be given a chance to respond. And then and then, you know, God in his grace and his mercy, uh, will eventually evacuate all of hell. And then then there’s another minority view, uh, because because the majority view is the literal things that we just talked about. But another minority view says that, uh, that Jesus wasn’t talking about like, almost like there is a place, but it’s not quite literally a place of torment because Jesus, you know, talked about fire and total darkness, and those things cannot coexist. And so he’s using metaphorical examples in the same way that he’s using, you know, uh, you know, other other landmarks that he would often refer to and, uh, you know, like, just just like in revelation, we just read about like, like grape juice flowing from a wine press and, and things like that. And so, uh, those are, those are different views of hell. And I believe that those, those are people trying to take the limited information that we are given, and they’re trying to reconcile the goodness of God, and they’re trying to reconcile, you know, uh, the logic of it, like you said, and the emotions of it. Um, but but most theologians believe, uh, what what what is written, which is hell is a literal place. Uh, either way, whether it’s fire and darkness going existing or not, it is very clear that you don’t want to go there. And it’s a it’s a definite separation of God. Uh, and it is a place of misery and, uh, eternal torment and internal torment. Yeah.

Jeff
Yeah. So I believe in hell, uh, because Jesus believed in hell. Yep. And in Luke chapter 16, Jesus tells the famous story of a rich man, Lazarus. And he says, and he went to the place of the dead. And there in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side. The rich man shouted, Father Abraham, have some pity. Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames. Now here he’s talking about, uh, pre. Uh. Crucifixion and all these kinds of things. So there was a concept of two sides to Hades. There’s the torment side and the, the, the the Paradise side. Right.

Chris
Yeah. Which is the Sheol version.

Jeff
Right, right, right. And some people believe that when the Bible says that Jesus went and took the captivity captive after his death, that that’s what he did is he cleaned out the Paradise side. Right. So who knows? But Jesus does describe this eternal, uh, consequence for evil versus good. Uh, Jesus said that hell wasn’t for us. It was for the devil and his demons. Right? It says, but, uh, in was this. I’m. It’s Matthew 25. Yep. Matthew 25. Jesus says, but when the Son of Man came in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He’ll place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. And then the king will say to those on his right, come, you who are blessed by my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. And then in verse 24 it says, Then the king will turn to those on the left and say, away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.

Chris
Verse 41, you said 24.

Jeff
Yeah. Oh, I’m sorry. 41 yeah.

Chris
Yeah. And so and that’s sounds pretty clear to me.

Jeff
Yeah. Jesus is pretty clear on this.

Chris
Yeah. So it’s, it’s and so regardless of the details of how exactly, you know, the environment is. Yeah, uh, you know, the end result seems to be very clear.

Jeff
And this is Jesus version of what we talked about yesterday at the Great White Throne. Jesus is saying, I’m going to be the judge and I’m sorting them out. Right. So the one who paid the price for us is the one with the Lamb’s Book of Life. He’s the lamb, and he’s saying, either your name is in the Lamb’s Book of life or it’s not. And so he separates the sheep from the goats. And then, as we mentioned yesterday, there’s no middle ground right at the final Judgment. The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he’s being patient for your sake. He doesn’t want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. God’s allowing time to play out because he wants us to be able to go to heaven, which is the other side of this conversation. Right? Right. Uh, which which leads us into revelation chapter 22. It said, the spirit and the bride say, come, let anyone who hears this say, come. Let anyone who is thirsty come and let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life. Jesus said, he is the water of life, right? Right. And so the Bible’s just saying, anybody who will come, whosoever will, may come is what the King James would say.

Chris
I think. I think of what he said to the woman at the well when he says, uh, the water that I give anybody who drinks will never thirst again. Yeah, yeah. Right. And he talks about, you know, the wellspring coming up. Yeah. And uh, and I love how in revelation and we have this image of Jesus, you know, the conquering hero at the end, and he’s still referred to, uh, well, you know, well, not him. He’s not referred to that. But but but eternity. The invitation of Jesus through Jesus freely referred to the water of life. That’s right. Which is so cool.

Jeff
And so it literally says, let anyone who’s thirsty come. Yeah. Whosoever will may come. And so then, which.

Chris
Means the invitation of hope is offered to every single one of us.

Jeff
Evil will be judged. And that’s a good thing. We all want evil to be judged. We just don’t want our evil to be judged well. And so he’s saying, listen, whosoever will may come. So then Jesus says in John three, remember when he’s talking to Nicodemus, Jesus replied, I tell you the truth, unless you’re born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God. He’s saying, there’s a moment when you go from death to being born again. You are dead in your sins, and then you can be born again in Christ. That’s you’re saying, and unless this happens, unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God. So then the question is how? Yeah. And John 14 six Jesus said, I am the way, I’m the truth. I’m the life. No one comes to the father except through me. So Jesus is making it clear heaven and hell are a choice. Hell was never made for humanity. It was made for the devil and his demons. But if we reject Christ, our name’s not found written in the book of Life. Then there is no hope.

Chris
And. And by the way, uh, you know, I always reference these three things because I heard them once from a pastor, my previous pastor that I sat under in Atlanta. Uh, but I love it because when you hear John 14 six and Jesus says, I’m the way, the truth, and the life no man gets through except through me. Yeah. People always say Christianity is narrow minded. Like, how can you possibly believe that? It has to be only through Jesus? Like, that’s so narrow minded. And yet Christianity is the only world religion, the only one, uh, that’s actually the least narrow minded. Because everybody, uh, gets in the same way, right? Only in Christianity, everybody gets in the same way. Uh, only in Christianity, everybody is invited, right? And only in Christianity everyone can meet the requirements. Yeah. And so so so, so the invitation is broader than any other world religion, right?

Jeff
It’s for everybody.

Chris
Everybody’s invited. That’s right. Everybody can meet the requirements. Everybody gets in the same way. And that’s only true with the message of the gospel.

Jeff
It literally says in first John five, and this is what God has testified. He’s given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the son has life. Whoever does not have God’s son does not have life. So the greatest question literally, this is getting your name in the Lamb’s Book of Life is by having the son in your life, right? That’s it. It’s just that simple. And how do you do that? Paul tells us in Romans ten, if you openly declare that Jesus is Lord, that means King of your life, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved, for it’s by believing in your heart. You’re made right with God. It’s by being by openly declaring your faith that you are saved. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Chris
Yeah. That’s great. Well, it’s a great invitation. It’s really crystal clear. And, uh, that’s about all the time that we have to cover it. Uh, it’s a lot to think about. Sure it is. There’s a lot of implications because of it.

Jeff
And the Bible tells us many times today is the day of salvation. If you’re not sure, don’t wait. Don’t risk eternity on waiting until you know more. Call on Jesus. Invite everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Chris
Yeah, that’s a great place to end and we will see you tomorrow, hopefully on The Bible Guys.