Transcription

Connor:
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways.

Chris:
Hey everybody, and welcome to The Bible Guys. And I guess today is, I think, our first time where we’re going to call it The Bible Gal.

Debi:
Well, hey, I’m pretty, yeah, I’m pretty pumped about it.

Chris:
Yeah. Yeah. You have broken the title mold. Bible Gal. I love it. Yes. And so this is Debi Zentz. Debi has been on the staff of the church that I work at, and you were here long before me. Why don’t you tell everybody how long you have been on Heritage Church staff?

Debi:
How old is Heritage Church?

Chris:
I don’t even know, 2000, it’s 24 years old? Whatever year it is. Almost 24. It’s how old we are.

Debi:
So yeah, 24 years old, 24 years. Yeah.

Chris:
What month did it start?

Debi:
January, January 2000. Oh, did it really?

Chris:
Yeah. Okay. Wow. So it’s just over 24 years old.

Debi:
That’s why we celebrate our anniversary every January here.

Chris:
Oh, gotcha. So, so you have been around since the dinosaurs.

Debi:
OK, not the dinosaurs, all right?

Chris:
Hey, that’s not the way to start this out, man. No, it is not.

Debi:
No, I’m not the oldest person here. No, you’re not. I’ve just been around for a while.

Chris:
That’s true. That’s true. So listen, I cannot give Debi enough praise and my respect because everything you touch is awesome. So anything from volunteers to events to programs and everything else. And you used to do a lot of what I do. I know.

Debi:
The arts world was like my love. Music, right? My whole family, we played. I played keys. My husband still plays bass. I got drummers in the family. We even actually had a dancer once that might have, my daughter. Years ago, little kids, like little kids.

Chris:
So you were the Von Tropps of Hairitage.

Debi:
We were, absolutely, yeah.

Chris:
Yeah, if anybody knows what that is. So Debi today, because Jeff’s out of town, of course, we’re having different guests and you sort of are buttoning up the week for us. So here’s how Desiree wrote it on the show notes. She said, Debi is the queen of planning and throwing events. So here’s today’s question. If you could create your own holiday, what would it be called and how would people celebrate it? That is such an unusual question.

Debi:
Okay. That is an unusual question because you know what my mind goes to initially? Let’s just have a dark chocolate day. Like let’s just eat dark chocolate. I don’t care about anything else.

Chris:
For no reason at all. Just eat dark chocolate. Other than you like dark chocolate.

Debi:
Right. Dark chocolate day.

Chris:
Oh, we can have a butter pecan ice cream day.

Debi:
Oh, as long as it has like chocolate in it.

Chris:
No, no, no, no. I’m talking about me. Okay. Well, you can have your own, but I’m fantasizing about my day, Debi.

Debi:
You’re an ice cream guy.

Chris:
You can’t, you can’t come into my fantasy.

Debi:
You know, the only people who eat butter and pecan ice cream are old people, old people.

Chris:
I know that’s what Jeff makes fun of me.

Debi:
Yeah. Yeah. Old people eat, eat butter pecan. My husband loves butter pecan.

Chris:
So, okay. And he’s old like me.

Debi:
Well, I’m not going to say that. All right. So what holiday, what holiday? Um, you know what? I think we need a catch up day. Do you ever feel like you need a catch up day? Not the red ketchup.

Chris:
Day to just get caught cuz I was really gonna be Florida.

Debi:
I was like Heinz No, no, I think we need a day to just catch up get all the things done that we did never have time for It’s just one day dedicated but but isn’t isn’t that every holiday? No, this would be a day where we don’t have to come into work We could actually just stay home and you could do drawings or painting and I could like watch HGTV or whatever I want to do all day

Chris:
I think a lot of people probably take advantage of like Labor Day and President’s Day and all the days.

Debi:
That’s a yard work day.

Chris:
Yeah. Those usually sometimes. Yeah. But not for not everybody. Not everybody.

Debi:
I’m not a yard work person actually.

Chris:
Yeah. Okay.

Debi:
See, I like to plant. Flowers that somebody else already put together like I just bring out the pot and sit on my porch and people think it looks amazing Yeah, yeah way to go.

Chris:
Good job. It’s like it’s like ordering in ordering in gourmet food right in your own containers, right? That’s great. So you think catch-up day to catch up on your household chores?

Debi:
No, just on whatever. Maybe it’s catching up with a friend. Maybe it’s catching up on your sleep. I don’t know. Maybe it’s like a, just a, hey, it’s a go out to lunch with somebody you’d never have time for.

Chris:
You know, if I were to create a holiday, so because, because you did that so quickly, we have a, we have a minute or two. I’m going to answer my question seriously. So if I were to create a holiday, I would create a holiday where, um, everybody served one another. They were required to serve one another in Jesus love.

Debi:
This is very spiritual.

Chris:
I know, because it’s just who I am. It’s who I am, Debi. You can have your catch up day, and I’m going to have serve people day for Jesus.

Debi:
Okay. I don’t know why I just don’t believe that right now. I don’t know.

Chris:
Hey, you know what I call that? I call that a Jesus juke.

Debi:
Jesus juke.

Chris:
Yeah. There was a guy on staff who left staff recently, but I won’t mention his name, but he was famous for Jesus jukes. And like, I would say something like, hey, nice beard or whatever. And he’d say, you know, I have a beard because Jesus has a beard. You know, or I’d say, Hey, I went to Las Vegas and I saw the show in Vegas. Well, I’m a Christian, so I don’t go to Vegas. Right. He always, but, but, oh my goodness. It was every other sentence. It was a Jesus juke. And, uh, that’s pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Debi:
So pay it forward day. I think there might be a national pay it forward day. I’d have to look it up. I want to say, remember when the movie came out?

Chris:
Oh yeah. Yeah. I remember. Yeah.

Debi:
That’s a great movie. Right. Um, you’re the movie guy. So, um, yeah, I think, I think they made a national pay it forward day. I like that. Which is kind of in line with what you’re thinking.

Chris:
Yeah, that’s cool. Well, I was just trying to be righteous. I was trying to Jesus juke you. Yeah, well. But you didn’t. Because honestly, I would choose Butter Pecan Ice Cream Day, probably, if it was within my power. I mean, not that it’s more important. I’m selfishly wanting a Butter Pecan Ice Cream Day, so.

Debi:
Well, we could go do that afterwards. Hey, that’s true. Let’s just go get some ice cream. That’s true, after the podcast. We’ll have ice cream for lunch.

Chris:
Ice cream for lunch, wow. I think, let’s do that. That is amazing.

Debi:
That could be our holiday, Ice Cream Lunch Day. There you go.

Chris:
Ice cream, dessert for dinner. Dessert for dinner. There you go. Okay. All right. These are all good ideas. Hey, you heard it first here on the Bible Guys and Gal. There you go. That’s right. Well, I guess it’s Bible Guy and Gal, right? Right. For today. Right. Awesome. So hey, today we are actually in Job chapter number nine. And yesterday’s podcast, we read chapter three. So there was really just a lot of dialogue between chapter three and chapter nine. where really they’re just, they’re working through it. Job has three friends who are there who are, you know, surprised that Job is still not sinning or cursing God. His wife has already spoken up, you know, and said just curse. She was so supportive. Yeah, she’s not very supportive at all. And so Job is, you know, he’s lamenting. He’s in anguish. Not only has he had everything taken from him, but then now he is sitting there with boils on his skin. And it’s so painful that he has to sit in ashes, which, by the way, we didn’t even talk about. We didn’t even talk about that. I mean, imagine how bad you have to be. Because I’m sure in those days, they didn’t have like, you know, foamy bean bags or fluffy, you know, bathtubs with… Avino soaks and things like that. Yeah, like Epsom salts. They didn’t have any of those things. So they were forced to like say, what is the softest thing that we can think of? Ashes. That sounds horrible. It sounds horrible. Absolutely horrible. And because he was a rich man, I’m sure he has no shortage of resources to create a big pile of ash, but he’s scraping the boils with a piece of broken pottery.

Debi:
That’s just disgusting. There’s no other way to describe that.

Chris:
But today we’re picking up on chapter 9, verses 1-12, and Job is going to be, it says, Job’s third speech. So you want to take it away?

Debi:
Alright, I’ll read it. Then Job spoke. He said, Without warning, he moves mountains, overturning them in his anger. He shakes the earth from its place and its foundations tremble. If he commands it, the sun won’t rise and the stars won’t shine. He alone has spread out the heavens and marches on the waves of the sea. He made all the stars, the bear and the Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the southern sky. He does great things too marvelous to understand. He performs countless miracles. Yet, When he comes near me, I cannot see him. When he moves by, I do not see him go. If he snatches someone to death, who can stop him? Who dares ask, what are you doing? Whoa.

Chris:
Yeah. You know, this is actually a pretty deep. There’s a lot. Twelve verses in there. That really, truly, because isn’t it funny how It almost seems like this could be taken from the posture of like he’s on the brink of anger But at the same time he’s at the brink of futility But but then at the same time it could be totally taken positive like he’s just acknowledging God’s sovereignty, right?

Debi:
He’s absolutely acknowledging that God has the power Oh, for certain. He’s omnipotent, right? He’s going for it. This whole chapter in those verses says that. And yet he’s sitting there saying, yet here I am. I don’t even see him. He walks by me. I don’t even know he’s there.

Chris:
You know, it implies certain things, but it’s almost like reading between the lines because it’s almost as if he’s working it out. You know, after all, I mean, there’s just chapter after chapter of him just crying out to God for him, you know, just lamenting and, you know, expressing his thoughts. And it’s almost as if this is a resolve of like, I want to challenge God, but I know I can’t. Doesn’t it sound like that? It’s like, not only can I not, but nobody can challenge Him, right? In other words, it’s futile to even try to challenge Him because He’s the God who’s going to do what He wants, right? And so when He talks about this, it is really truly like if you didn’t know that it was actually in lamenting, these are some pretty inspiring verses. Like verse number 10 on its own, if you were to take that and put it on a poster, right? And some inspirational card or quote, it says, he does great things, too marvelous to understand, he performs countless miracles. And somebody would say, amen, right? Like what a great verse. But no, it’s not in the context of something great. It’s in the context of him saying, God is great, and I can’t challenge him, and nobody can, right? I also think it’s really cool that he actually lists constellations that we recognize today. I almost wonder which came first, the chicken or the egg, right? That is a good question. The astronomers of the world took their cues from the Bible, right? Like Pleiades, which one’s Pleiades? Hmm, oh, that’s Pleiades. The Orion or the Orion, which one is that? Hmm, let me think. It’s kind of cool though, isn’t it? It is cool.

Debi:
Yeah, I think Job, when I read through Job, I don’t know, I think everyone as a Christian has felt like they’ve had their Job moment, right? They’ve had their Job moment. And, I mean, my feelings about what Job was thinking here is Job only knew what he knew at the time, right? He only knew is, hey, I don’t think I’m sinning more than most people around me, right?” He says, I’m not that bad of a guy. I don’t think he ever said that he thought he was sinless, right? He never admitted that or tried to put that out there. But he’s like, I’m suffering way more than how much I’m sinning. Like it feels like life is out of balance. And so if I can’t become righteous with God, right? Who can? That’s a question I think a lot of us feel.

Chris:
Yeah, well, I mean, I felt that way. I felt like for a long time, I think I’ve told this from the stage before a couple of times, but I felt like there was a season in my life where I was just serving, serving, serving, serving, and then just getting nothing in return. And the way that I described it was I felt like I was in a one-sided relationship. And I was just like, come on, God, just throw me a bone. Right. And it’s just like, gosh, it’s like, can you please just acknowledge the fact that I’m your servant, that I’m trying over here? And yes, I’m not perfect. I had all those thoughts. I remember I remember, geez, the lowest point of my life. I remember actually saying that in my prayer. I actually said, throw me a freaking bone is actually the way that I put it. Right. and not to be disrespectful, but I mean, I was on the brink of madness just about, and certainly desperation. But again, it’s interesting about Job because you can’t read tone into text, right? So you could almost hear this speech as inspiring, or you can hear it on the brink of desperation, you can hear it on, maybe it’s at the other end of questioning, and now he’s, you know, sort of like he’s spoken in resolve. You know, you can almost hear it in so many different tones because, you know, of the intent and because of the circumstances, right? Right. So it’s really hard to sort of, you know, process this. But here’s one thing I do know. I do know that Job has no doubt that God’s in control. No doubt.

Debi:
He knows he holds all the cards and he has the power. He’s just struggling with why.

Chris:
I remember one time when I was a youth pastor and there was a circumstance. We were trying to get all these kids to go to camp, summer camp, and it cost a bunch of money and we had more kids than money and we didn’t know how it was going to work out. I remember just being extremely frustrated. I had a moment of, oh no, what are we going to do kind of thing. And I had a friend who is actually now, since passed away, he’s in heaven with God. So maybe he’ll laugh about this with God one day, or maybe we’ll both together one day laugh at it. But he looked at me and he goes, Chris, he goes, do you actually think that God’s on the throne right now saying, oh no, how are we going to get Carly to camp? Oh no, I don’t know how this is gonna work. He goes, do you actually think that God is stressed like you? And I just had a calming sense just come over me and I thought, you’re right. God is not on the throne saying, oh no, I didn’t foresee this happening. I don’t know how I’m gonna solve this. It’s like, God’s gonna come through. And sure enough, he did. It worked out something came through somebody donated somebody served someone someone gave sacrificially it happened She went to camp, you know, and it was great and everything else But in that moment, I just remember his resolve and he’s like he’s like Why are you stressing? God’s on the throne right? God’s God’s got this right either way and I

Debi:
That’s a big burden to lift off your shoulders in those moments, right? Yes. Yeah. I think we’ve all been in those places, you know. We’ve been through a lot. Like, you know, I have my son, Ben, who’s had a lot of health issues over the years, right? So we’ve dealt with a lot of that. And there have been times sitting in a hospital room, dark, right? Feeling like you’re praying and it’s just hitting that ceiling and falling right back down. Like it’s not going anywhere. It’s not leaving. And you’re like screaming out to God in your spirit. You’re screaming out to God in your heart. Like, you’re like, you’re giving up basically on every single thing that you could possibly do. And you realize it’s only God. Mm-hmm. And yet you hear nothing.

Chris:
Mm-hmm. So have you ever have you ever struggled with wanting to know why? because you know, you’ve had your share of challenges and still still continue to face things right and but have you ever Have you ever just? Really wrestle with why or or do you find it? Do you find it? Easier to just say well, I don’t know why and that’s okay like which one the pendulum where does it swing and

Debi:
I think it depends on where you are. Sometimes I think a lot of times I don’t ask why a lot of times I just have given up on that and understanding that I have will never know why. You know, a lot of people ask even about Ben, right? Like, why does he have to suffer? Why has he had to go through all these things?

Chris:
I don’t know. Let our listeners know what health struggles he has.

Debi:
So Ben is severely disabled, right? So Ben was born perfectly normal, six weeks old, shaken. We adopted Ben. We brought him home on hospice, right? They never really expected him to survive. And he’s 20, by the way. He’s 20 years old. He’s very loud. He loves to chat. But he doesn’t walk. He doesn’t talk, right? But he’s had over 80 some brain surgeries and lots of other medical procedures. So he’s in a short period of time, like through like a seven-year period of time. he went through extraordinary suffering, like extraordinary suffering. And I remember laying on his bed, like literally laying over his body, like while he’s just throwing up and throwing up and having all these horrible things, saying, God, it’s okay, like take him, like relieve his suffering. And yet nothing. It’s like God could have snatched him out in that moment and he would be running in heaven, right? And like, and we were, as heartbreaking as it was, we wanted that for Ben, you know, but he didn’t. And so he allowed that prolonged suffering. And so I remember sitting in the hospital reading the book of Job. Some of the chapters are a little long and a little right. I mean, there’s what, 40, 42 chapters? Yeah, there’s a lot. Yeah, there’s a lot. But I could really connect with Job at certain times in my life, right? So where do I stand on the pendulum? I’m not going to ask God why. I just want to accept the fact that God knows something I don’t know.

Chris:
Right. Yeah, and that’s something I don’t know. It’s a good place to be. Yeah.

Debi:
It doesn’t mean that we’re happy about it. No, not at all. It doesn’t mean we’re not still battling for what we hope for, what we want, right? Right. We still battle for that.

Chris:
And we as Christians know that, you know, the effective fervent prayer of a righteous person avails much, right? So we know that prayer changes things. We know that God can change direction of his original intent, right? So he was gonna wipe out, you know, Sodom and Gomorrah and Abraham said, hey, if you find this many righteous people, would you spare the city? And he said, yes, I would. you know and of course it turns out that there was no righteous people in the city right except for uh uh you know we just we just get done reading with with that with abraham lott and sarah and everything else and so uh you know and then uh um uh here is uh God and Satan having a conversation. And God at first says, well, don’t touch his health. And then Satan comes back and says, I just know of his health would be attacked, that he would, he would curse you. And then God says, okay, go for it, go for his health. Right. And, and, and so, yeah, so we know we are taught Even Jesus said, he said, remember that parable, that crazy parable that he says, there’s a man that heaven is like, the kingdom of God is like, a man that knocks on the door and the man inside says, go away, we’re sleeping. And he says, but because of his persistence and because of his shameless audacity, basically, he will get up and then give this man a loaf of bread. And he said, in the same way, pray this way to God. So we know that we should pray big. We know that our relentless, faithful prayers can move God. But at the same time, just like in the case of Ben, sometimes it just doesn’t happen. You know?

Debi:
You know, it’s interesting because a lot of times when you go through those things, you’re assuming, and people are assuming, oh, there must be something wrong. They’ve done something wrong, right? I mean, what has Ben done wrong? He was an infant. He did nothing wrong, right? Obviously, that’s not the cause of it. but you’re thinking, is God punishing me? In the same way, I don’t know if you’ve ever had this happen for you, but people be like, if you just had more faith and you prayed, God could heal Ben. And do I believe God could heal Ben? Absolutely. Do I believe God is omnipotent? Absolutely. Does he have the power to do whatever he wants to do? Absolutely. Do I truly believe that God will heal Ben here on earth? I guess that depends on your definition of heal, which is a whole conversation. But I don’t think he will be healed here. Chris, if you got a car wreck and you had your arm amputated, right? You lost your arm. Nobody will be saying, if you just had enough faith and you prayed, your arm would come back.

Chris:
Well, I actually think, I believe that there are people who actually would say that.

Debi:
But most of us would probably understand that you don’t believe that, right? That’s not going to happen. Just right. There’s just a human law of nature things. And for Ben, I believe the same thing, but I believe that God’s using everything that’s happened to Ben and our family through Ben, right? Yep. Which has been a great thing. So yeah, I really kind of resonated with a lot of Job’s struggles in that.

Chris:
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting too, because there are people, and I get angry at this, I really do. I get angry at a lot of things that Christians say that are wrong and abusive and spiritual abuse. But one of them is sort of not everybody’s fault, right? Because there’s a group of people that believe this, and I believe that they believe it probably because they believe it’s true, right? So I’m not too angry. But they believe if the reason why you pray for healing and you’re not healed, it’s your fault, you don’t have enough faith, which is what you alluded to earlier, right? Now again, I try not to be angry at those people, but the thing that I do get angry about is when they put the blame on somebody, right? So I had a really good friend who had something that they were struggling with seizures for years, and they came to a healing service, and they said, well, it’s your fault. That person walks away and says, well, you just don’t have enough faith. And that’s what I get angry at, right? The spiritual abuse part. But anyway, the point is this, is that did you know that nowhere in the scriptures did Jesus actually say you needed more faith? He actually, when he said, how great is your faith? People think of great in terms of size. but he said great in terms of impressiveness, right? The true authentic faith, because Jesus actually said, you only need this faith of a mustard seed, but he’s talking about true faith. When he says, where’s your faith or how great is your faith? He never said you need more faith, not once. So I’m under the firm belief, it’s not the size of your faith that matters, it’s the size of your God. Right? It’s not the size of your faith, it’s the size of your God. If you have just the faith of a mustard seed, but that true faith that believes that God can do anything, and it’s true faith, you know, when God says you can move mountains, right? So that kind of faith can do anything. So the idea, and again, I’m not trying to attack anybody. If we have people listening around the world, which we do, who say like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I’ve taught my whole life that you have to have more faith in order to be healed. That’s fine. I would just lovingly challenge you and say, look into that a little bit more because Jesus doesn’t say that’s the remedy. He never says that’s the remedy. He never says if you just have more faith or, you know, If he says a lack of faith, again, it doesn’t mean quantity. It means a lack of true faith. And faith, it’s the kind of faith that the Roman centurion had. When he says, he says, you don’t need to come to my house to heal my son. He said, just speak the words. And then what did Jesus say? Never have I seen such great faith in all of Israel. He didn’t say quantity of faith. This guy has more faith than everybody in Israel. He didn’t say that. He said, how great is that faith? That’s what he said. So I believe that this is the kind of faith that Job has. He has faith in the moment that God is who he says he is, that God can do whatever he wants to do, and he is at the mercy of a God that he never sinned against, never cursed, never spoke against, never even gave any indication that he blamed him. Although he did say, God has chosen to condemn me, right? He actually did say that. In other words, what he’s doing is he’s not cursing God or blaming God, but he is attributing the cause from God. And technically he’s right.

Debi:
Well, God is allowing it. God allowed it. God allowed it. Right. And that’s what you have to understand is God’s allowing this for a reason that’s far above what we can understand, right? Right. And so, yeah, that’s what I think I love at the heart of the whole book of Job.

Chris:
Yeah, so any closing thoughts? Because our time is coming to an end. If somebody’s struggling out there, any last sentence to encourage them?

Debi:
I think if you’re going through, like we all go through our dark days, right? Our dark times. It’s not what you’re trusting about. It’s not the situation. It’s who you’re trusting in. And so I think that that’s what Job was acknowledging. This whole chapter is like he was acknowledging all of God’s power. I mean, he created all these beautiful things. Nature, right? The sun, the moon, the stars. He hung them, for goodness sakes. It’s not just he painted a pretty picture. I mean, he literally placed all of this into our being for our value. And so when we’re having those days, I think just like Job did, just say, hey, I know God could do it. And to step back and say, I’m just surrendering to that. And I think surrender is a big piece of this, too, of faith, too.

Chris:
Yeah. Never stop praying. Don’t stop praying big. But ultimately, trust in the God is in control. Yeah. That’s awesome. Hey, that’s a great place to end, and we will see you next time on The Bible Guys.