Transcription

Connor:
You’re listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun and practical ways. Hey, everybody.

Chris:
Welcome to The Bible Guys. We’re so glad that you’ve tuned in for this episode, whether it be in the morning, afternoon, evening, whenever you’ve tuned in. Whenever.

Jeff:
Whenever you tuned in.

Chris:
You know what? Any time is a good time for The Bible Guys.

Jeff:
Every time is a good time. Every time. Every time’s a good time. That’s so funny. That’s right.

Chris:
So today we’re going to start off with a segment that is absolutely hilarious. Jeff and I both discovered that this segment was what it was just about 60 seconds ago. So right before we hit record, I was like, Oh no. Okay. So here’s the segment we were both read at the same time. What made Jeff mad this week? This is hilarious. Yeah. So Desiree wrote down a little qualifying paragraph and said, it’s time to give Chris a break. First of all, thank you, Desiree. It’s time to give Chris a break. And then she says, and this is very astute, she said, the last several times that Chris was mad about something, Jeff agreed with his feelings about the situation. So this week, we’re going to ask what Jeff, what made Jeff mad and see if Chris agrees with him or not.

Jeff:
Okay, so usually whenever you’re talking about being mad about something, you are angry for the rest of us. Vicariously angry or mad on our behalf.

Chris:
I’m mad that it exists.

Jeff:
That’s right. So I’m going to take a different angle for this. And this is really, I think, more where a lot of my frustration comes from. Not entirely. Dumb people make me mad too. Sure, sure, sure. Beyond that. So I’ll tell you two stories, and they both happen at the same time, and then I’ll tell you what makes me mad about it. So I just was in Gabon, Africa, and we were working on a meeting with a bunch of pastors. And we had three meetings with about 300 pastors talking about starting a church planting movement with the Timothy Initiative and making disciple makers. And so these three meetings were 10 hours apart driving. So we drove 28 hours in three days. Yikes. Right? It was insane. It was just crazy. So we had a driver.

Chris:
I’m too dumb to know where Gabon, Africa.

Jeff:
Gabon is South of Cameroon. the Congo.

Chris:
Try again. How about go? Okay. Okay. So yeah.

Jeff:
Yeah. So if you make the big turn on West Africa and then start going South, it’s on that Western coast rate right by the Congo.

Chris:
Okay. About halfway down.

Jeff:
Yep. So, uh, sent it’s central Africa is what it’d be. So anyways, uh, mountains, jungle, our driver is just going as fast as he can go on jungle roads in the mountains. And, uh, we in Gabon, if a car wrecks, they just leave it on the side of the road. So no, no less than 50 destroyed fall off the side of the cliff, burned out cars on the side of the road. And this guy, I had my translator app up. and he was complaining to the other guy in french he was complaining saying that this car maxes out at a hundred sixty kilometers per hour which was is ninety nine point seven miles an hour and i’m telling you this guy we squealed our tires going around corners on these mountain uh… jungle mountain roads 50 times, 100 times, 10 hours at a time, just white knuckling it, freaking out. And so I keep trying to say something, but I’m saying things like, wow, you know, there’s no there’s no checkered flag at the end of this 10 hour drive. Hey, you’re not getting a trophy by driving fast. And he would just laugh. And I would say, you’re really going fast. And he would just laugh and stick his foot to the floor, go faster. We come flying around the corner of the jungle and all of a sudden there’s a sign there. It’s an elephant crossing sign. They have 36,000 elephants or 65,000 elephants, something like that in Gabon. And so 15 ton elephant, five ton car, we’re going to lose that one, right? If we come around the corner. So I keep just gently, ha ha ha. Would you please slow down? And he never did for three days. And I’m thinking, this is how I’m going to die. Right? So that’s one. How did Jeff die? There’s one story. There’s no McDonald’s or anything to stop for. There’s no drive-through. So we would stop like, you know, five hours into these trips somewhere near a river. There’d be a little like roadside shack restaurant and we would order food. And so the first time, I didn’t know what it was, but there was just fish, just lots of fish. And so they were grilling fish. My friend orders fish. And I keep looking at it going, that looks familiar. I just, I can’t think of what fish it is. So I asked my friend and he told, told me in French, but I didn’t know what it would translate in English. So I ate it and man, it was bony and it was rough and it wasn’t the best fish I’ve ever had. So finally, uh, the other guy, he finally translates, it’s carp, it’s carp. And I was like, Oh wow. Did you like it? And I said, well, I can honestly say that’s the best carp I’ve ever had. So the next time we stopped, they didn’t even ask me what I wanted. They just went and ordered me carp because apparently I love carp. And they said, if you liked that other carp, this carp’s even better. Well, I didn’t like that other carp, but that other grilled carp was horrible. And now I have to eat it again because I didn’t advocate for myself. So here’s what makes me mad. And this is about what makes me mad about myself. Sometimes when I have really strong feelings about a thing, I make a joke about a thing rather than advocating for myself. I didn’t speak up. I didn’t speak up and say, if you don’t slow down, we’re going to have a problem. So instead for 28 hours, I just let him risk my life nonstop. And then I really did not like the carp, but I also didn’t speak up and say I didn’t really care.

Chris:
And what you’re trying to say is I’ve never had carp. That was horrible, but it is the best carp I’ve ever had.

Jeff:
I was right. And so I was trying to deflect. So I think the thing that makes me mad about myself sometimes is that I will not speak up and advocate for myself. I speak up and advocate for others if I think there’s an issue. But for me, I just let a thing go. And it’s frustrating. So. I’m thinking in my head, this makes me mad about myself. So we get to our first hotel out in the bush and it wasn’t really a hotel. We walk in the room and I’m already kind of frustrated with myself that I’m not advocating for myself. And there were roaches in my bed, in my bed when I got there. And I went, no, I’m not sleeping in this bed. And the hotel owner just died laughing like I was joking. Thought it was funny at that point. So apparently, even when I decide to advocate for myself, nobody takes me seriously. So that’s what makes me mad today.

Chris:
Yeah. That’s hilarious.

Jeff:
I did get a different room though.

Chris:
So Desiree is asking me whether I agree with this sentiment. Well, it’s very hard because this is very specific about you. Not advocating enough.

Jeff:
Making a joke when I should have been serious.

Chris:
Yes. So I will say this. So I agree that it makes me mad as well. only when if somebody makes a joke rather than speaking up and then let’s just say they say it to me, right? Like, you know, instead of telling me, let’s say I’m the one driving fast. And if they make a joke and they don’t tell me to slow down and then I don’t slow down and then they get mad at me, they’re like, well, I made a joke that I would say, well, then next time speak up.

Jeff:
That’s right. So, so my response is what makes you mad then?

Chris:
When I make a joke, but I wasn’t clear enough. It would only make me mad if you, if I get then get mad, if you got mad at me when you didn’t clearly speak up. Right. So, so, so in that case, I would say I relate very much to your stories, but not from me personally. I have a tendency to speak up for myself all the time. Yeah, and sometimes I do it right, but oftentimes I don’t. Other times I’ll just be blunt. Like we were going through Egypt, and remember that? And they were going 120 miles an hour, and finally they have a tendency to turn off the headlights, and I don’t know why. And then they ran through a construction, and they almost killed us. Then we get back on the road, and then he turns the lights off again. And I literally shouted to our other church representatives’ dismay, and I said, turn on the headlights! And they all literally were shocked. And they turned back around. They looked at me like, is this guy serious? And then finally he turned him back on. And then nobody said a word and they just looked straight. And I was like, I just couldn’t handle it anymore.

Jeff:
So I’m a big advocate, encouraging people to advocate for themselves. Yes. And a phrase I use all the time is either you fix the problem or you are the problem.

Chris:
And you’re your own problem.

Jeff:
And I’m my own problem in that moment. I just was trying to be polite. I wouldn’t speak up. And so instead I had, you know, 28 hours of full on terror and I ate two meals that were, you know, horrifically bad because I wouldn’t speak up in the moment. And I could have, I could have said it in a nice way. Hey, did you like that carp? Oh, you know what? I’ve never had it before. It’s not my favorite. And then I wouldn’t have had to have a second one. I could have said it in a nice way. I could have taken that driver aside and said, if you don’t slow down, I’m going to throw you out the car and drive myself. But I didn’t so that’s anyways. Yeah, that makes me mad about myself.

Chris:
Well, hey, we’re jumping into Jesus giving the Great Commission Which is one of the big drivers of the church and of Christianity

Jeff:
Hey, this is one of the things that drives our lives, your life and my life, right? Right here, this is it. But it should drive every Christian’s life, right? The great commandments, the great commission. So the great commandments being love God and love people, and then the great commission right here. So Matthew chapter 28, and then again, we’ll read the same thing in Matthew chapter 16. So it says here- You mean Mark 16? What’d I say? Matthew. Yeah, that makes me mad too. Thank you for advocating for everybody. Matthew chapter 28 says, Then the eleven disciples left for Galilee, going to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. And when they saw him, they worshipped him, but some of them doubted. Jesus came and told his disciples, I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I’ve given you and be sure of this, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. And then in Mark chapter 16 it says, and then he told them, go into all the world and preach the good news to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned. These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe. They’ll cast out demons in my name and they’ll speak in new languages and they’ll be able to handle snakes with safety. And if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. And they’ll be able to place their hands on the sick and they will be healed. And so Jesus sends them on this mission, go make disciples.

Chris:
Yep. Go make disciples. And, um, so let’s, let’s camp on the most important here. So the, um, because Mark says a bunch of weird things, but, um, Jesus given the great commission, he did. Drink stuff and you’ll never get sick. And people translate that literally and all these different kinds of things.

Jeff:
He’s talking about it specifically in the context of going and sharing the gospel.

Chris:
Yes, that’s right. So anyway, let’s start with Matthew. So Matthew gives the Great Commission and it is the mission. So think about this. So Jesus trains the disciples. He sends them out two by two. Remember that? The 72 go out. They’re all healing people. They’re doing it in Jesus’ name. Jesus gave them the authority. And then, of course, He dies on the cross. They don’t understand it. He rises again. He breathes on each one of them. They receive the Holy Spirit. And now He’s saying, I have been given all authority, therefore, go. And so this is one of the last things that Jesus says before he goes back up into heaven and ascends, and he’s giving them a mission that involves the world.

Jeff:
Yeah.

Chris:
The whole world.

Jeff:
Okay, here’s your mission. Go everywhere and tell everyone.

Chris:
This isn’t like a couple weeks ago when he said, go into the city and find a donkey. and bring it to me.” And then the mission’s over, right? Or go fish and you’ll find a coin in their mouth, and then the mission’s over. Jesus is giving this group of people the mission to go make disciples who are making disciples and do it to the uttermost parts of the world, right? Go into all the nations, go as far as you can go. He doesn’t say some, he says all. Which again, I mean, how else can you take that other than… They had no world map.

Jeff:
They didn’t know where everywhere was. And they didn’t know who everyone was. But they said, okay. So it turns out you don’t have to know everything and have every detail in line before you go. You just need to go. That means you don’t need to know everything about the gospel and everything about theology in order just to go to your neighbor. You don’t need to know everything in order to go talk to your coworker. You just have to go. He said, go and tell. That’s it.

Chris:
That’s right. And tell them what? Tell them the good news of Jesus. So you don’t have to answer theological questions or debate with agnostics. Hey, listen, I don’t know much, but here’s what I do know. I once was blind and now I see. That’s it. So you know that story, you know about Jesus, you can go and tell.

Jeff:
That’s right. If you know your story and you know God’s story, then you can share the gospel. So it’s interesting, there’s a few things here. Jesus says go into all the world and make disciples. He doesn’t say go plant churches. He doesn’t say go have Bible studies. He doesn’t say go and do religious things or dig wells or build orphanages or build hospitals. All those things are nice and necessary, right? But he says go make disciples. And not only does he say, go make disciples, I would argue he’s saying, go make disciple makers. And the reason is, he says, go make disciples, and I believe that disciple making leads to church planting, and then this making disciples leads to conversion, which then requires baptism. That’s important. And then he says, and then teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I’ve given you.

Chris:
And one of the commands is to go make disciples.

Jeff:
He only gave three commands. Tell me any other command Jesus gave. He said, love God. He said, love people. Go make disciples and teach them. That’s it. Yeah.

Chris:
And when he says this new command I give to you to love one another, that falls under the great command.

Jeff:
Love people. Right. Yeah. Right. So you can summarize everything Jesus told us in this passage. Go make disciples. Bring them into the family of God through baptism, conversion, right? They’re coming to faith in Christ and then they’re gonna be baptized. And then teach them to obey everything I’ve commanded you. Love God, love people, go make disciples and teach them to obey everything that you’ve commanded me, commanded you. What’s that? Love God, love people, go make disciples. It’s over and over and over again, that’s it. So the idea would be making disciple makers because it’s the, and teach these new disciples to obey the commands I’ve given you. So you’re teaching them to do what you do. So I think that one of the things that we’ve done is we’ve distilled Christianity down to religious services and good deeds. And we’ve forgotten the idea that what we’re supposed to be doing is making disciple makers who make disciple makers. We just talked about this with our elders last night a little bit, right? As we’re not re-imagining, but we’re refining our, our, our disciple making things. So we have to first define what is the disciple? How do you, how do you define, because if he says, go make disciples, what is a disciple? If I’m supposed to make it, what is it?

Chris:
Right.

Jeff:
What is it in your mind? What is a disciple?

Chris:
How do you define a disciple? It’s the person willing to learn and follow Jesus, or another way to say it is a fully devoted follower of Christ.

Jeff:
Yeah, I think that’s a good definition. I’ve used that definition before. I think I’ve come down to, at its simplest form, a real disciple hears Jesus and obeys Jesus. So devotion could be For the disciple who doesn’t want to obey.

Chris:
It could be a feeling.

Jeff:
Could shift devotion over to a feeling. I’m very devoted to Jesus. Belief. Oh, I believe in Jesus. Faith is very important to me. They never actually do anything. Right. So I think that to be a real disciple.

Chris:
But that fall, that collapses on itself because if you believe everything, everything that Jesus asks us to do is do. Right. Right. Right. Which means if you don’t do, then you don’t believe it.

Jeff:
But I think church pews are full of people who are devoted and don’t do. Right? So they take a word and they shift it to mean what they need it to mean. But it’s really hard to say, I hear Jesus and make it mean anything else. Jesus gave us his words. He is the word, he gave us his words, that’s it. So I hear what Jesus says and I obey what Jesus says. So there is the knowledge side. I need to know what he told me. I need to just spend time in the Word. I need to have that. It’s why we need Bible teachers. It’s why we need small groups. It’s why we need other people discipling us with regard to the information in the Bible. But discipleship is not information. Discipleship has results, and the results are the doing of what he told us. So, I could have all the information. You know, the information is, the Great Commission says to go and make disciples and baptize them and teach them. Boy, that’s good information. That is what it means to make disciples. That’s great. But if I’m not making disciples, then I’m not actually obeying it. So you have to obey. There’s a doing of our faith, not just a believing of our faith. Not for salvation, but because of salvation. And so I think that if the sleeping giant of the church could just realize this latent power built into us to literally transform the world. If we would go from just believing to actually doing, I think we could transform the world. I think that there are so many more people that would come to faith, that this wildfire of the gospel that is spreading in the places where the disciples are hearing and doing and going and making new disciples, if that would happen to us, I think you could transform your workplace. I think your office could be totally different 18 months from now than it is right now. If you would lead somebody to Jesus and teach them to lead somebody to Jesus, and teach them to lead somebody to Jesus, and teach them to lead somebody to Jesus, you could transform your workplace. I think a high schooler in two years could transform their high school. if they would decide that they’re not just gonna have a faith that they’re fond of, but would decide, I’m gonna lead into this, I’m gonna figure out what it means to make disciples, and I’m gonna teach them to make disciples too, I think you can transform your high school. I think you can transform your neighborhood, you can transform your family. Not only do I think it’s possible, I’ve seen it happen over and over and over and over again, when God’s people decide, I’m gonna hear what he says, and I’m gonna go do it. And so we have to know what a disciple is and then go make that. Yeah.

Chris:
Somebody who hears and obeys. So last night at the elders meeting, when we talked a little bit about this, we were talking about how reaching people for Jesus and evangelism is the hardest of all the five purposes of the church. Oh yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, fellowship with one another, which is a great word.

Jeff:
We all like that.

Chris:
Woo. Yeah. Yeah. Potlucks. Yeah. Potlucks. Yeah.

Jeff:
Let’s have some coffee and chit chat. That’s great.

Chris:
Just love each other. Growing Bible studies, you know, worship, right? That’s the other one. And then what’s the other one? Bible teaching. And then there’s another one. Serving. Serving. Yeah, serving.

Jeff:
Serving is a harder one because it’s not for us, it’s for other people. So there’s a little bit of maturity that it requires for us to decide it’s not just about me. I’m going to use my time and resources to serve somebody else.

Chris:
But to evangelize, which is a made-up word that Jesus never says, the word evangelism.

Jeff:
He uses the word euangelion, which is the good news.

Chris:
Oh, the good news, okay.

Jeff:
Yeah, that’s where we get evangelism from, from euangelion.

Chris:
So sharing the good news. So the idea of sharing the good news and telling people about Jesus and, you know, leading them to Christ, you know, and converting them and all these kinds of things. And by the way, Jesus doesn’t tell us to stop there. He doesn’t just say, lead them to Christ. He says, make them disciples, which means to lead them to Christ or tell them about Christ and then to help them grow in Christ, right? But anyway, the point is, is that even the evangelism part or the going and telling apart, that’s the thing that people shy away from the most And that’s the thing that people, and I’m not sure if it’s just our generation more than any other generation. Like, I try to rewind like 1,500 years ago. I try to rewind even, heck, even 50 years ago in the 70s when the great, you know, when the great evangelism movement was happening. You know, it’s just, it’s just It’s just different in different generations. And I think that we’ve, we’re living in a time now to where people don’t want to hear it. You don’t want to, what do they say? Don’t talk religion or politics. That’s what it is. And so the idea of bringing up Jesus or, Hey, let me ask you, what is your position about God or Jesus Christ? It’s the thing that people want to avoid. And it just happens to be, we live in a generation where people are most uncomfortable just bringing it up.

Jeff:
It’s hysterical to me how often I’ve had people go, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don’t talk religion, we don’t talk religion or politics, but they can’t shut up about the benefits of Bidenomics, or they can’t shut up about the benefits of MAGA, right? So they talk politics all the time. They never turn politics off the TV. They’re constantly scrolling on politics. It’s politics, but they just don’t want to talk about religion. Right, right. But I would just say that that’s a false argument, right? That Jesus said, hey, there will be a struggle. People will reject you if you’re going to share the gospel. But what we forget is he also said there will be much fruit. The fields are ripe unto harvest, he said. The issue is not whether or not there’s ripe fruit out there to pick. The issue was, he said, so then pray the Lord of the harvest that he send workers into the field. The shortage was not the harvest. The shortage is workers willing to do it. So we get convinced, oh, I might get set. Somebody might tell me no. Sure, somebody might. But what if you harvest some? He said there’s plenty of harvest. And all I can tell you is the pure joy and elation of leading a person to Christ, having an eternal impact in a person’s life, and then having the privilege of helping disciple them to go do the same thing, there’s nothing more satisfying. But the devil has gotten you distracted by the negative and you don’t see any of the positive. Right? The positive is so far beyond the negative that if you can just fall in love with leading people to Jesus. And so I was at the pyramids just a couple days ago. And we were showing some friends, because he’d never been there in Cairo before. And my guide was a Muslim man. And so he was having fun. We started laughing. We’re all cutting up. We’re telling jokes. We’re playing with each other, all this kind of stuff. And then my guide said, you guys are a lot of fun. And I said, well, that day was the first day of Ramadan. So I said, are you a committed Muslim? Is your family participating in Ramadan? He said, oh yes. I said, so tonight will be the first Iftar meal, the celebration after Ramadan. He said, yes. And I said, that’s a big deal for families. And he said, oh, they view Iftar like we would think of Thanksgiving. Everybody gathers around. It’s your favorite meal, all that kind of stuff. And I said, I’m going to be praying that God gives you a great time with your family. He goes, you pray? I said, yeah, I’m a committed Christian. He said, I don’t know many Christians that pray. I said, well, to be honest with you, I don’t either. But I said, yeah, I pray. And he goes, oh, well then we’re really different. I’m surprised you pray for a Muslim man. And I said, listen, my goal is not to get you to stop going to a mosque and start coming to a church. My goal is, what I wish, is that you could know Jesus like I know Jesus. I wish you could know the peace in your family and in your own heart. I wish you could know the joy and the love that only Jesus can bring. I wish you knew Jesus like I could know Jesus.” And he goes, you know, I think the world needs more Jesus. So most people don’t reject Jesus and the love and the joy and the peace in his message. Most people reject the packaging that we package it in inside of the religious systems that we bring. So our goal when we take the gospel everywhere to everybody is not to get them to start going to some steepled building and listen to some guy in a suit and tie or in a robe with a backwards collar. Our goal is to get them to Jesus and that’s the good news that’s in Mark. Go into all the world and preach the good news. The good news is that Jesus came and he solved our sin problem, makes it possible for us to have a relationship with God. So if we could stop trying to get people to convert to our churches and our religion and instead bring people to Jesus, I think it changes the world.

Chris:
Yeah, that’s great. Well, hey, that is our time and that’s a great, that’s a great message. So, hey, we will see you hopefully Monday if you’re following day by day on the Bible Guys.